Future Plans w/ AGEOD

[jchastain]

What I have always wondered, and I do not expect any response from Matrix on this - it is just my own ponderings, is whether Matrix was frightened of setting a precidence by consumating a deal with AGEOD where they did the secondary release. 
 
What I mean by that is that I assume most games are going to draw a large part of their sales immediately after release when there is pent up demand of gamers who have been following the development and the game is getting lots of reviews and press.  By self publishing first, AGEOD gets 100% of those "easy" early sales instead of giving up a publishing percentage to Matrix.  Matrix only gets a cut of the add-on sales that are generated by the extra exposure that is generated by all the people who visit this site, learn of the game, and have some affinity to Matrix. 
 
That makes perfect sense when you consider only this transaction.  But that sets a precident that it isn't an "either/or" publishing deal where you either sign up with Matrix and give them a cut of everything or you lose acess to their customer base.  It sets the precident that devs can pick and choose WHEN to begin the Matrix distribution.  And I would expect some (certainly not all or even most because publishing, distribution, and support are not nearly as easy as some might imagine) would choose to self publish first and grab a larger percentage of those initial sales and then use Matrix as a secondary channel to capture additional sales.  If there is any questions about that, look at AGEOD where they enjoy this exact "benefit".
 
Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see the AGEOD partnership and glad to see Matrix being so flexible.  I am actually a bit surprised none of the other Matrix devs have gone to this model.  Again, I think that shows greater maturity than I would have expected in that the devs have a better understanding of the complexities of distribution than I might otherwise have given them credit for.  But I am curious as to whether Matrix has had to do a lot of education to convince people not to do their own initial distributions.  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall to hear all the discussions about opening this door to begin with.  And I'd be real curious about whether they would do it again if they could go back in time.  Matrix doesn't talk about their business practices, so I don't expect and answer to any of these questions.  But I do find them interesting.

[cdbeck]

ORIGINAL: jchastain
Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see the AGEOD partnership and glad to see Matrix being so flexible. I am actually a bit surprised none of the other Matrix devs have gone to this model. Again, I think that shows greater maturity than I would have expected in that the devs have a better understanding of the complexities of distribution than I might otherwise have given them credit for. But I am curious as to whether Matrix has had to do a lot of education to convince people not to do their own initial distributions.

jchastain,

I believe the difference is between Matrix being a publisher
and also a distributor. Why most of the other "Matrix devs" don't pursue a similar "piecemeal" course like AGEOD is that Matrix is actually publishing their titles, rather than just acting as a distributing storefront.

If I understand the "biz" correctly, with devs like SSG, ADG, and maybe even DVG, Matrix actually absorbs some of the development costs, marketing costs, and distribution costs, in exchange for being the sole distributor of the game. So Matrix puts an investment into the work of certain Devs who could not afford to self publish (smaller, more independent Devs) and they get a say in the development process, get to hound the developer to try and fill certain quality assurance goals and deadlines (see the EiA boards for examples), and then get the right to see it without the developer going to any other outlet.

Now in the case of AGEOD, their success with BoA and Philippe's past successes allowed them the funds to self-publish AACW and the upcoming NC. They still sought out distributors such as Nobilis in the EU and Matrix in the US to provide alternative outlets and brick-and-mortar boxed copies, but they always had the plan to self-distribute on their digital download service.

Why do more devs not do this... simple... lack of money. In fact, we don't necessarily want more people to do this. Sometimes, having a good publisher invest in devs allows more resources for a project and gets the project's quality to a higher level (just as publishers do in written materials like books). They also enforce loose deadlines (except in the case of Robert Jordan, RIP).

SoM

[ravinhood]

On the other hand having publishers involved makes for some sloppy crappy released games as we have seen for the past near 10 years. I applaud AGEOD for going independent if they can afford to. I would expect their games to have more gentle care and loving hands place on them before release. Not saying Matrixgames is really bad about releases there's going to be some bugs, but, when you look at the likes of more recent published games from Battlefront and Paradox and Sega Total War welp the truth is in the pudding. I don't like the AGEOD engine, but, I still applaud them for doing it on their own. But, if an independent can't make it I'd prefer to see them go with Matrixgames above those others I mentioned. Even if Matrixgames has some steep prices. I still have every christmas to look forward to. I like that Matrixgames are more personal with us as well, compared to Steve at Battlefront who is more antagonizing toward his prespective customers, but, still also interacts. He's one of those types if you agree with him you're fine in his book, but, if you don't watchout his banning train is a comin lol. And no I haven't been banned from there, but, I don't spend much time there anyways. This is my home away from home. I simply love the conversations and debates and the loving titles you all give me here. lol

[Gil R.]

ORIGINAL: jchastain

Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see the AGEOD partnership and glad to see Matrix being so flexible. I am actually a bit surprised none of the other Matrix devs have gone to this model. Again, I think that shows greater maturity than I would have expected in that the devs have a better understanding of the complexities of distribution than I might otherwise have given them credit for. But I am curious as to whether Matrix has had to do a lot of education to convince people not to do their own initial distributions. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall to hear all the discussions about opening this door to begin with. And I'd be real curious about whether they would do it again if they could go back in time. Matrix doesn't talk about their business practices, so I don't expect and answer to any of these questions. But I do find them interesting.

Depends on whether you consider a horse's head left in my bed to be educational.

[cdbeck]

ORIGINAL: Gil R.
Depends on whether you consider a horse's head left in my bed to be educational.

A very rare picture of Erik with the Matrix servers:

[ravinhood]

That picture more reminds me of what Judge Dredd and Terminus might look like after they've read one of my posts.

[cdbeck]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

That picture more reminds me of what Judge Dredd and Terminus might look like after they've read one of my posts.

No, RH... that looks like this:

[Plodder]

...compared to Steve at Battlefront who is more antagonizing toward his prespective customers, but, still also interacts. He's one of those types if you agree with him you're fine in his book, but, if you don't watchout his banning train is a comin lol.

That is just not true.You can disagree with Steve as much as like as long as it's constructive.Act like a jerk and he'll treat you like one.

[ravinhood]

{very well because I respect Erik}

[Erik Rutins]

Let's not go there, Ravinhood.

[Skeleton]

Anyways...back to where this all began; I own too many war/strategy games to mention and with the exception of SC2, Matrix and AGEOD games are what I spend my free time playing. I think the mark of a truly brilliant game is one you still find yourself playing a year or more after it's release. I marvel and appreciate the high level of quality of both companies and hope that the relationship between the two continues.

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

That picture more reminds me of what Judge Dredd and Terminus might look like after they've read one of my posts.

No, RH... that looks like this:

Bat Boy !

[korrigan]

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
Why do more devs not do this... simple... lack of money.

Lack of money... and skills.

It's perfectly exact to say that if the AGEod team decided to selfpublish its games it was because we wanted to design OUR games. No marketing constraints, no stupid deadlines. Philippe has never forgotten his disastrous experience with Pax Romana. Plus nobody wanted to invest in the Vainglory of Nations project anyway [;)], so we decided to self publish Birth of America in order to get known and gather some funds for our other projects. VoN development is now fully funded.

However, all Dev teams don't enjoy the presence of some PC game industry veterans such as Philippe Thibault and Francois Claustre. Only thanks to their experience, we were able to do this. For most Dev team, if you can't do it good yourself, better to leave it to others. Actually, if the AGEod team has worked with Matrix on Birth of America and American Civil War, this is also because they are excellent professionals and better than us on the US market for example.

I would also like to stress what has been said about the importance of passionate and dedicated publishers such as Matrix for the PC wargame community. As it has been said, they invest and support the devopment of excellent games that would not get published otherwise. Thanks God for them.

Best regards,

Korrigan

[cdbeck]

Well put Korrigan!

Publishers are a mixed bag, as the AGEod fellows seem to know (aforementioned Pax Romana and Great Invasions being key in mind). But, on the other hand, they do open up the arena to some great small time developers who may need the funding, expertise, and name recognition of a bigger group.

As you said, it doesn't always have to be a situation like Electronic Arts recent acquisition of Bioware (which could go many different ways). Sometime it is like Lighthouse with Kerberos (makers of Sword of the Stars), Matrix with SSG (or Western Civ or so-on).

I think the best example of the publisher/dev relationship working well is with Stardock and Ironclad (developers of Sins of a Solar Empire). Stardock basically extended their development time an entire year (and did so honestly and up-front with all the fans), opening up a giant beta testing program, and providing lots of internet blitz (think what you want about Brad Wardell, the CEO of Stardock, but he is a master at getting the word out there and talking with the public). Better yet, Stardock started out as a small independent developer, whose first break-out hit Galactic Civilizations, allowed to branch out and now become a self-publisher and a good home for new indie devs. I can't wait for the day that AGEod starts to take in more devs in the same fashion!

On a side note, Korrigan, I might be moving from New York to Marseille for a year (for archival research). Got any advice? [:D]

SoM

[ravinhood]

Yeah I like Brad and Stardock as well. He doesn't mind telling you some of their financial outcomes from selling games or hide things from you till the last minute. He's not afraid of competition I guess like SOME PUBLISHERS we know.

[PDiFolco]

Well, Stardock started as a small game dev studio only when they already were a successful and profitable "utilities" software company.
Not comparable to AGEOD that started only out of PhilThib and Pocus passion for their projects, helped by F Claustres and a handful of "believers" that helped fund the games - and I'm proud to be one of'em ! [8D]

[cdbeck]

Well, PdiFolco, I think they are very comparable. It isn't like PhilThib was just some random person, as Korrigan said. He has already had some success and renown. Sure, his earlier games may not have been received 100% well, but everyone can agree that his vision was unique and had huge potential.

And actually, Brad Wardell started off by designing Galactic Civilizations for the OS/2 platform way back when, then moved on to Object Desktop.

Tsk Tsk... Ravinhood... don't turn my praise of another developer into a implied weapon against the hosts of this site. That is bad form and lacks proper decorum! [:-]

SoM

[ravinhood]

Now I didn't mention any SITES name, you presume too much Mr. Holmes.

[Erik Rutins]

I purchased the original GalCiv for OS/2 when it first came out, was very disappointed to find out later that none of that money actually ever got to Brad.

[cdbeck]

Yeah, apparently that was a publisher horror story! I think he did make profit on the later expansion packs (Shipyards). Also I think he had a Gal Civ 2 for OS/2 as well. One of the few games for that OS, I guess.

Funny, it seems that lots of people who have had negative encounters with their publishers have gone on to found publishing companies! Look at Brad and the apparent theft of his hard earned money and Philippe Thibaut with the mistreatment of his vision (and the premature release of two of his programs). You Matrix boys never got beat up by a publisher, did ya? [;)]

SoM