no glorification; please

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:57 am

Kids today are not the kids of my day and time unfortunately.
I have the overwhelming urge to spit on people that tell me the viloence in media has no effect on the people watching it.

My son possesses no toys that have "weapons" yet his play often involves one toy attacking the other. Its sad in a big way.

And dont go thinking that the public will see the media as being responsible. No it will point the finger at the warmongering crowd. When ya meet in groups and draw attention to our hobby dont be surprised when people say the most outrageous inaccuracies about ya.

And this comes from an active rolegamer that has heard aaaaaaall about my satan worshipping hobby called generically "Dungeons and Dragons" (which is like calling every wargame on the market Tactics II.

Alas wargamers are like rolegamers. We sit at home enjoying our hobbies and no one sees much of us. So the public makes up the stuff with no input from us for the most part. What the public knows of wargaming, is told to them by biased uneducated persons.

Its not enough for General Amnesty to educate his son. He should beat some facts into the head of his ex. Because she is the enemy here. Its the idiotic ramblings by people like her by the sounds of things that people are listening to.

He can show the boys the truth, and they will know. But his ex will require a great deal more effort.

I by the way dont let my son laugh at other people suffering. War is not something to laugh at. It is one thing to study it, to know it, quite another matter to make it harmless "fun".

bradmbrown · Post by **bradmbrown** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:45 am

The only way to keep our kids safe from media influence is to go and live in the bush with no boat out.

The boy's mom was living in Winnipeg when a bad flood happenned there. She and her room mate were pulled out of their farm house and rode in a Canadian Armed Forces APC to a big church on some high ground. They were tended to lovingly by some fabulous troops and then handed over to the tender care of the Red Cross and a bazillion other good folks.

I have asked her why she dislikes the military so much, after a wonderful thing like that happenned to her. She ripostes the same tired cliches over and over again and it isn't possible to argue with her or she will have me beaten by her four big ugly brothers.

Personally, it is her style of unregulated, untrained and un called for violence that I fear and resent!

I watched a big busted-nose soldier in a small town in Alberta take a punch right on the nose by a angry cowboy. He backed off saying, "Sorry, sorry. I am SORRY!"

The bouncers got to the cowboy and threw him out. I asked the soldier, later, why he didn't hit the man back.
He shrugged and said, "I am on leave and want to relax."

I would trust a soldier as easily as I would a police officer or a firefighter.

I wish my son to see more people with the class that one lone groundhog showed in that little saloon that night.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:42 am

As far as the intro goes, it is a little much. I totally agree with the reasons for having it. However, when my girlfriend (who is Jewish, well read, and had family who suffered in the war) saw and heard it, she was not amused. 'People' on average do not have the same kind of particular knowlege of WW2 like 'we' do. That is part of the power inherent in images. They communicate whatever has been associated with them. In an intro there is hardly enough time to explain that the site is about WW2, much less discuss anything as complicated as the crux of this thread. I think it causes more harm than good. I would rather see it stay than go, but I don't think it's a big deal.. and in the end not worth any trouble it could generate. I, personally, tend to follow the anti-censorship line of thinking... but you guys have a product to sell. Popularity matters.

Aside from that stuff, the whole anti-war sentiment among many people in the world is perfectly understandable. Come on. Growing up I learned that my life and the lives of those I cared about were very important. It doesn't take much effort to hate killing... and it doesn't take much effort to associate killing and war. Conflict is fascinating (why I'm into war), but very difficult to understand... even in it's simplest states. War is super complex and outside the scope of most peoples' existance. The usual response to something that repulses you is NOT to try and understand everything about it that you can.

Tomo

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:49 am

Tomo, the thing I 'm trying to get across is that we may at some point have to defend our hobby against the prevailing anti-war sentiments (admirable as they are, but too full of misinformation) on our side of the globe. I've gone over the subject of the appeal of wargames before, and we've discussed it within the confines of our own community, but, indeed the subject of war and its fascination is infinitely complex. One of these days, the media is gonna give us a peek (our 15 minutes of fame) and they will try in their lowest-common-denominator way to understand what we, the wargaming community, are all about. What would YOU tell some ill-informed media person?

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: KG Erwin ]</p>

bradmbrown · Post by **bradmbrown** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:41 am

One of these days, the media is gonna give us a peek (our 15 minutes of fame) and they will try in their lowest-common-denominator way to understand what we, the wargaming community, are all about. What would YOU tell some ill-informed media person?

THAT is a VERY good idea for a new thread!

TheZel66 · Post by **TheZel66** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:43 pm

WHile I love the game as well.. I always thought the opening sound file for the SPWAW website was a bit over-the-top. Bad taste. I wish they get rid of it. (Webber, where you at???)

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:06 pm

Thats not a bad idea.

I am running with it.

See my new thread. Defend wargaming in no more than what you can speak in 30 seconds or 100 words or less.

Going to call it just that as well

"Defend Wargaming"

lets see if the forum can even stay on topic to heheheheh

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 12:11 am

As for education, I'd like to recommend Elie Wiesels novels (particularily 'Night') for kids as well as grownups.
It is not only the wargaming communtiy that has experienced problems with displaying swastikas. I recall vaguely that the video for David Bowie's 'China Girl' contained swastikas (as well as the lyrics) that resulted in a ban in Japan (IIRC).

John Turesson · Post by **John Turesson** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:47 pm

Originally posted by kmd_dragov:

I personally don't like the cover picture; with the soldier having SS runes on the helmet. Another thing is that SPWAW page plays "Sieg Heil" now when i enter! I like computer warfare, because it is only on computers. But how shall the teenagers realize it?
<snip>

What do you think about it ? It's possible that this is only a discussed problem in Germany.

greetz, kmd_dragov <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: kmd_dragov ]

I do understand your sentiments and for those who does not understrand the power of symbols let me just say.

"The swastika is just a symbol until the day someone carves that symbol on your door."

John T.

Sgt.Striker · Post by **Sgt.Striker** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:17 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
To add to Waylanders remarks

The biggest tragedy of the second World War, is precisely that we as a race learned absolutely nothing from those staggering millions that died during the 30's and 40's which dragged on into the 50's and 60's and then through into the 70's and even reappeared nicely in the Balkans in the 90's.

We are still fighting the Second World War in some places, in spite of the fact that all the main players went home.

As late as just a few years back we were still having people throw off the oppression of that conflict. The Ukrainians Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians were never willingly part of Russia for instance. Damn good thing Hitler DIDNT have the common sense to enlist the aid of the Russian hating peoples, or he wouldnt have buggered up the war in the east. And then we would certainly be sitting in a different world.

Its for this specific reason that I am so interested in people remembering the war "that happened so long ago". Because in some respects its not really even over yet. Depends on the perspective of the person I guess and where they live. Take Israel for instance. They havent known peace since they created that country. And they were born of the Second World War, so that part of WW2 is not yet concluded.

He did enlist Lithuanians, Estonians, Latavians,Ukraines,Cossacks and Even Russian to help him figh in the east, only problem was that they were given inferior equipment and training.

ES_Sandyman · Post by **ES_Sandyman** » Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:51 am

I am a designer for Ensemble Studios. We do real-time strategy games, not hard-core wargames like Steel Panthers (we did Age of Empires & Age of Kings). However, though our own games make no claim to historical accuracy, some of us, including myself, enjoy real wargames.

That said, I had to grin ruefully at the comment of the gentleman who was worried because his kids were shooting civilians to test their weapons skills in the games. Age of Empires is a highly popular game (we've sold literally millions of copies), and is especially popular in Germany (we've sold as many German copies as American). I'm not saying this to boast but to make a point -- you see, the most-followed combat strategy in Age of Empires is to attack your enemy's civilians and towns! This is not unique to Age of Empires -- Warcraft, Dark Reign, and almost all other RTS games share this feature.

Yet the media pays no attention to these virtual-reality atrocities and massacres. Instead they wast time on wargames, which are sold to comparatively few (tho sophisticated) fans. In addition, most wargames don't have much civilian-fighting built in. Mostly you are fighting the enemy soldiers in Steel Panthers (and rightly so). I guess there ain't no justice.

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Fri Aug 31, 2001 2:32 am

Sandyman, thanks for making an appearance here. You don't remember me, but I used to post frequently in the AoKH forums (user name Wolfgang Berry). I know how you love the old AH-style boardgames of bygone years, but I've wondered why AoK doesn't catch more flak about civilain killing, which, after all, is a primary objective in disrupting the economy. The negative focus on wargaming, if it really exists, seems to be on symbolism, rather than the actual events that occur within the games. That strikes me as somewhat peculiar.

samba_liten · Post by **samba_liten** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:13 am

For a strong image of civilians (and soldiers) in a war of ethnic cleansing, try watching the BBC two part series Warriors. It is very well made, very gripping and totally horrible.

O de B · Post by **O de B** » Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:23 pm

I think you're overreacting about kids and youngsters approach of the game guys.
Nothing is more cruel than young people, because they have not yet the valors that make up an adult.
You consider that having a child slain innocent people or play SS in a game is not good. That's true.
But did you ever witness 3-4 year old kids ripping a fly or a butterfly of its wings and legs one by one and enjoying the process ? That's not better. And more or less every child do it in his life. When they grow up they play the thief and police. This has nothing to do with the police being good and thief being evil. That's
just a game with people chasing each other.
You are worried about kids wanting to join the SS or doing ethnic cleansing ? But they are kids ! This means nothing serious for them. That was (and unfortunately IS still in africa and elsewhere) horrible in such situations is that you get people that are to be adults recklessly slain other beings with as less care as if they were childs scratching ants. Whatever you do to prevent your kid from seeing the Evil he will sooner or later encounter it. But just because he loves playing SS in SP does not mean he is Evil. Maybe i'm just a devious pervert but i don't dislike playing Evil characters in AD&D games and also playing German or Russians is SP... that's a game. There's no reality imbedded inside
Also part of the normal growth of young people is to oppose their parent's valors... at last it's the way it's seen in my country. So it's natural that at the age of 12 or 14 or 16 he will claim he wants to be a SS or will use drugs/cigarettes or just dispute with his mother and father endlessly. IMHO that's part of the way to become an adult. You don't have to hold SP or Matrix responsible for your kid's excesses. I think kids are naturally attracted by what seems stronger and easier (let's say, the Dark Side lol) so if they play SP they'll chose Koenigs tigers to slain helpless M5.
Now General Amnesty i don't think your son was even playing ethnic cleansing. Given what you said that was the best way of testing accuracy, actually i'm impressed because i wouldn't have thought of it myself and would have bothered to edit the other's side weapons in order to eliminate the return fire suppression effect on the testing ground <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Your son seems quite clever <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

To come back to SP, i personally don't mind if the game lays emphasis on Germany, but i think since you can play long campaigns also from US, GB, USSR and others, then the themes could be mixed between all these major players. Unfortunately laws are made by human beings that live amongst various lobbies and so laws are not always accurate or 100% foolproof. Given what was said i *THINK¨* that probably the next version of SP should disable the default use of svastika as well as any offending sounds/themes etc. As for me i'll still use the svastika because if i play Good US/GB i want to kill these bloody SS bastards and not the nice german people that are now our allies... and if i play Evil ... then you get the figure <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Zevious Zoquis · Post by **Zevious Zoquis** » Sat Sep 08, 2001 9:48 pm

This is an interesting topic.

I agree with the above poster that kids "do the craziest things" so to speak. I don't think the fact that they mowed down a bunch of "civilians" in a game is much to worry about. I doubt very much they were making any sort of logical connection to reality in so doing. They were simply looking for stationary, "easy" targets to test the game engine on. Just as in a flight sim you would set up some drones to practice gunnery on rather than higher level AI opponents who would try and avoid getting hit and would fight back. Most (read "healthy") kids are perfectly capable of drawing a distinction between "game" and "reality." While I agree that kids have gotten more violent over the years, I tend to think it's more a result of the breakdown of the nuclear family than it is a result of media influences. "healthy" kids are not influenced (in a dangerous way) by images and media. The problem is, there are a hell of a lot of terrible parents out there raising a lot of unhealthy (I'm talking about mental health of course) kids.
When I was a kid back in the 70's, I can remember me and about twenty other kids running around my neighborhood with toy guns pretending to blow the hell out of each other. None of us grew up to be murderers and all of us understood completely that we were enacting a fantasy, not practicing for reality. Thats becuase we all had parents who taught us what was right and wrong.

As for defending wargaming as a hobby, well...if someone came up to me and asked me to explain my interest in wargames, I'd simply ask them if they ever played Chess, or Risk or even Stratego. My reasons for enjoying wargames have exactly nothing to do with "enjoying killing people" and everything to do with my love of strategy, planning, tactics and the simple appeal of "big machinery." I have no interest whatsoever in actually taking part in or in any way experiencing warfare in any real world sense. Saving Private Ryan is as close as I want to get to being in combat. In fact, I would be very happy if there were never again an armed conflict anywhere in the world.

GI Seve · Post by **GI Seve** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 2:25 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
To add to Waylanders remarks

The biggest tragedy of the second World War, is precisely that we as a race learned absolutely nothing from those staggering millions that died during the 30's and 40's which dragged on into the 50's and 60's and then through into the 70's and even reappeared nicely in the Balkans in the 90's.

Well I agree that we learned nothing from those wars,but I would remind that this has happened through out whole history of homo sapiens sapiens(modern human). Mindless killing of other civilisations has been tactics of different human societies for thousands of years not just new idea brought up by nazis. And I'm conviced that some horrific mass murders that occured at early days of human history don't even have any written memory to remain to this day.

Tomanbeg · Post by **Tomanbeg** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 3:32 am

Originally posted by General Amnesty:
My son and his friend discovered this game of Dad's called SPWAW.
I heard giggles and animated discussion in the computer room and after a while I went up to find out what had them so excited.
They had a row of troops on a plain grass battle map and opposite the troops a row of enemy units.
They were shooting down the enemy units as they moved about confused. There didn't seem to be any RETURN OP fire.
I asked them what they were shooting at.
My son said, "Civilians."

I said "Oh," and walked out of there fast, I had to think about that a bit.

I know my son and his buddy were testing weapons effectiveness. I already know that. But I have NEVER tested combat units that way in any game I have ever owned. I didn't even think of it until I saw it the other day.

I am still thinking about it.

It has only been a couple days and I am not forgetting I must teach the boy a thing or two. But I have to decide, and be very CAREFUL deciding what form the lessons should take.

Big can of worms this. My now ex-wife used to scream bloody murder because of my hobby. She had a lot of opinions about "Guys who like to play with toy soldiers." If our son goes to his mommy's house for a few days and fires up SPWAW there and his mom sees him gunning down a row of civilians she will come gunning for me and she will bring her army (it has happenned before).

Never mind the mother, back to my original dilemna:

How do I demonstrate to my son our hobby is tabletop wargames, NOT tabletop ethnic cleansing? Every argument I can think of he can smash to pieces.

Then Maybe he is right and you need to rethink your perspective. History is on his side, as well as reality.
T.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:44 am

Originally posted by Tomanbeg:
Then Maybe he is right and you need to rethink your perspective. History is on his side, as well as reality.

If you're sure his reason for using civilians was to test weapon effectiveness, then I don't see a problem. After all, in the game, civilians are good targets that don't fire back, which might complicate the weapons' evaluations. Now, if your son likes to torture squirrels to death in the woods behind the house then you do have a problem.