Underdogs gets new facelift

[Charles2222]

Some of you may recall that I took an anti-underdog stance before on the redo for 3R thread. On another site, one of those I mentioned that the moderators won't even let you mention the names of any abandonware sites, I picked up this particuler post that you might appreciate:

Theft is theft. Quite simple. Just because I dont or cant find hub caps for my 62 Renault doesnt mean I should steal them. Just cause I dont have an antique hard to find roll top desk doesnt mean its ok for me to steal it.

People dont think it hurts the industry, it does. For example, many Interactive Magic titles were still in production by the former IM President, they folded that due to Abandonware sites. One site alone had 13,000+ downloads of Capitalism Plus. Doesnt hurt them? You bet it does. We sent back over 500 copies we'd bought of that title alone telling them we couldnt give them away. They asked the site remove them and were told "shove off" (not mentioning site names as I'm not looking for fued).

One site we located some 13 eBay accounts where ordered things, paid, recieved, then disputed payment thus getting his abandonware free. In one incident, 4 titles at our expense + some $40 shipping. You the taxpayers got to pay for it as we wrote it off as a loss.

Now take my buddy Tony, Security Network Admin for Nortel Nets. He has all the security toys including software that cost nortel upwards of 12,000 a copy. He went to a popular abandon site and grabbed 4 files. Of the 4 files 3 of them had trojan horse spyware in them, Norton, McAfee etc. completely ignored them as if they were not even there. His $12K Network Associates Sniffer software started yelling and screaming.

People are such saps. ASK YOURSELF A QUESTION:

1. Why would some person someplace spend OODLES of money in bandwidth (downloads take lots of bandwidth) so they can give YOU free games? Would you spend lets say $1000 a month so everyone here could download old games?

Human nature is NOT always "Man, some guy in Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc" must be really cool as he pays for me to get all these games!!!!

Call the US Dept Of Justice In DC and ask them what beyond "scams" are the #1 ways that credit cards, identity theft, stock theft, password theft etc. occur on the net?

Its why Tony's a Nortel Admin. #1 is the emails where someone tries implant crap on your PC. #2 download of uncertified files and installation there of on peoples PC's. Now ask yourself where most warez propagate from, then ask yourself what nations are the clearinghouses of stolen cards, stocks, passwords etc. You'll find its the same places where you get your warez/abandonwarez.

WHY do you think in the USA if an Abandonware site comes about its RAPIDLY put under. You think its cause EA, Sierra etc are yelling "PEOPLE ARE TAKING OUR OLD GAMES!!!!".

Nope, its because the impact on Visa, MC, Amex, Discover, eTrade and numerous others find some tracing BACK to US based site(s). Cant do nothing about these when they sit in taiwan or Malaysia or now the "up and comer" former soviet republics.

Again, its NOT some chap out there spending money on space and bandwidth cause' he wants to be your best buddy, jeez... 95% of the downloaders dont even know who runs the site(s). Its done because its a GREAT BAIT to implant crap on your PC and then attain information that DOES have value. Like I said, people are so gullable in the USA its just unreal.

I can go right now and download polymophic worms/trojan horse softwares, change them about it bit, recompile them, attach them to some game and say HERE ITS FREE!!!! Not a virus scanner, or software firewall will EVER have any clue its installed and running. Meanwhile some chap sits back watching everything you do. Spyware is VERY popular these days.

--------------------
Rick
President
The Software Society
http://www.rochnet.net

[Charles2222]

BTW guys, I looked over that guys website and he has LOTS of old games for sale, so apparently he knows what he's talking about, being in the business of selling things other people would tell you isn't available anymore. I saw all the X-Com titles, as well as all the CIV's and SP's. I quickly went through some of his stuff and didn't see 3R.

[pasternakski]

Yeah, I knew this thread would spring this leak sooner or later. Post on AoW, Charles, and I'll tell you what I really think.

[Von Rom]

Originally posted by Charles_22
BTW guys, I looked over that guys website and he has LOTS of old games for sale, so apparently he knows what he's talking about, being in the business of selling things other people would tell you isn't available anymore. I saw all the X-Com titles, as well as all the CIV's and SP's. I quickly went through some of his stuff and didn't see 3R.

The site is owned by a female who spent 2 years in the states, earned an MBA, was offered a job in Hong Kong, and took it.

For years, she has had an interest in older games, and making sure the older ones, and those that are no longer published, don't fade away into oblivion. For better or worse these games are a part of our cultural heritage, and there is some nostaglia associated with those first special games. . .

The games that are for sale on her site are ALL linked back to, and are sold by, either the original publishers or game dealers such as CD-Access, etc. She merely provides the listing, but she, herself, does NOT sell any games. . .

Third Reich is found in the "War" section. All games are listed in alphabetical order.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

The world is an interesting place.

I have a friend, totally ordinary bloke, nothing out of the ordinary about him.

He has a conventional porn based web site. Why, because contrary to most embarassed guys assertions they don't, most guys like to look at porn.
He gets incremental sums of cash for anyone that goes to his site from the people that advertise on his site.
He never checks the site much (if at all). Yes I KNOW that is dangerous. I never said his idea for getting cash with zero effort was logical or something I intend to emulate.

Porn sites work based on you going to them. They re direct you to other sites (whether you want to go there or not). Sort of mutual self help arrangement among them you would imagine.

Warez sites exist because the are fronts for porn (like that was a revelation).

My own web page is with Tripod. No porn of course, but when you see my page, you see ads as well. It's fair, I am not paying for my approximately 16 megs of data space I use up.
Some people go to great lengths to purge those banners n things. I can't tell why. They are no more intrusive than the ads in the magazines I read or the inserts I throw in the round file in the first 5 seconds after getting the magazine in the door.

I am unsure just what Underdogs gets out of the experience (of existing). But I do agree, it's greatly unlikely it's to provde me with a copy of a game I can't locate elsewhere.

People DO in fact though do random acts of kindness though just because they want to.
I have a copy of Close Combat 2 most recently (yes the real thing not a downloaded cracked game). I even have the manual. I paid nothing for it, my online friend sent it to me as a gift.

This is not the only real wargame (not downloaded copy) I have recieved from online friends being randomly nice.
I have done pretty much the same in my own way when possible (there are nice people out there believe it or not).

Now on the subject of dangers. Yes I know that one well. I recently installed a free anti virus I was able to download (suggested by a tech to a friend), that found a virus on my sister's system. She had a current copy of Norton installed, but Norton didn't see it. It is not impossible that this anti virus can miss things as well.

Probably explains why the only skill I have cared to master, was the needed skills to format and reload Windows at liesure.
It's also one of the biggest reasons I like XP, as XP is the first Windows version this dumbass (me heeh) can install without help (whining to young friends for help sucks).

My answer to spyware is regularly cleaning the computer. How often you say? I format my system on average once every 6 months.
If that sounds excessive to you, I guess you can use your own methods at your liesure.

Now to be clear, I am NOT advocating peer to peer, nor the notion "abandonware" is "ok".

I own Steel Panthers 2 Modern Battles as well as the scenarios disk thanks to CDAccess.com.
I think it is nice that Underdogs will send you there when a game you are looking for is being sold there.
I have gained most of my wargames through secondary purchases ie compiled sets.

It is sad of course that the wargame trade is not indefintiely vital. It is unfortunate the original designer is likely not seeing much profit from the game 6 months after it was released.
My only response can be C'est La Vie.

There is a reason why after being a wargamer for hmm more than 25 years, I have not gotten the urge to make and sell one.

Regarding merely mentioning that games exist out there as downloads, well I guess it all comes down to tact.
We all know this, it's not like anyone was not aware.
Actually showing how to scam games might annoy some people (makes sense eh).
A web site might get offended by many things. Just drawing attention away from their site might be seen as annoying.

Then there is the well known fact that some sites that sell games, can often be hardly friendly to disenting opinions on the merits of their products (I have not yet, and will not likely be in the future, posting comments about HoI, where it comes from, for obvious reasons).

I for one do not think there is a "free lunch". Everything costs you something somehow in the end.

The ease with which we can be made able to play wargames on computer, is contrasted by the simple fact that computer wargames are all just computer data.
The cost is that the moment you release that game into the public arena, someone can be miserable about it, and give away free copies of it (for whatever end result purpose).

Now on the other hand, my collection of Advanced Squad Leader while not conveniently on my computer (yes I know about VASL obviously), is not easy to replicate.
It's boxes and mapboards, charts, oodles of pages (ok more than oddles hehe) of rules, zillions of counters, magazines like the Annuals, scenario cards, add on modules.

Heck if I could replicate this stuff in the first place I would be working for MMP making them materials to sell.

The cost there for ASL though, is limited ability to get it in the hands of other wargamers.

Pick your poison I say.

You will never see my name attached to a computer wargame as having been involved in it's creation. There is no money in it in my opinion (or not enough perhaps).
My hats off to those that struggle on to produce what is produced though.

I am (I hope) known for my support of copy protection. It might be intrusive, but I can deal with it for the sake of the software maker.
There are arguments for and against copy protection.
Just as there are arguments for and against places like Underdogs.

Final analysis from me though, until people make a point of making Underdogs illegal, and making it illegal (and impractical) to possess peer to peer software, I am not going to cry over the matter.

The blurb "you are not allowed to distribute copies in violation of copywrite" (or variations on that sentiment) has to rank up there with the most moronic statements of our time.
Sort of like how everyone naturally reads the legal disclaimer when installing software "yes I have read the disclaimer and agree" yeah right.

[Charles2222]

pasternakski: I don't post on that mostly uncivil forum. I brought this as a kind warning to you all, no hard feelings whatsoever. You want your credit card abused then that's your business.

Von Rom: Aw, so you trust her. What even makes you sure she's a woman? There's not a single thing you said that proves any of what she claims. BTW, the forum I spoke of, they talked about that site extensively, but they had to refer to it as 'site X', so when Rick posted what he did, he mentioned a prominent abandonware website that his friend downloaded those four files from, 3 of which were laced, and he might've been talking about underdogs, but it's unclear. All I know, is that NONE of those games are worthy of my risking my credit cards on. I wouldn't even risk my credit card on CL if I could legally get it free (that is, if getting it legally free meant coming from somebody who ALSO gives out people's property away without their permission). Yes, I will likely use my credit card to buy CL, but the diference is that I have no reason to suspect that Matrix will abuse the number I give them,whereas foreign-based sites whom I don't know from Adam, giving away stuff for free, which I have ethical qualms with anyway, I don't trust in the least. They admit what they're doing is illegal, and yet I'm going to be dumb enough to trust someone who is thieving? Don't blame me if a year or two from now those credit cards, etc, look pretty abused.

BTW, I wasn't referring to the shameless underdogs when I was referring to not being able to find 3R. I was referring to Rick's site, the same one that I mentioned has LOTS of old wargames, which the link was at the bottom of his post, and I'll repeat here: (I looked exetensively this time, and although a great many wargames of every stripe are there, 3R is not) http://www.rochnet.net/

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Charles that site link in your last post, do you know where they hail from (ie exactly where the business is located?).

I am wondering, because I would rather pay a few bucks, and get a retail copy instead of someone's idea of a downloadable file version.

I am not saying that every business out there offering items for sale is doing so legitmately, but if I buy an item online, that is offered as the real thing, and shows up at my door as the real thing, then I am of course inclined to believe the business is as legit as I can be expected to asertain.

I am curious about that link because I have found the real thing usually works better installs better and well let's face it, while I am not some noble schmuck really, I still feel better when I have a reciept for something I bought honestly.

I have bought from CDAccess.com and I feel no reason to think they are selling me a lark.

I am wondering if you know if this site in your post lives up to your own expectations.

Oh just for details sake, I don't have a credit card (limit of my pension unfortunately), so I am never going to have to fret over that issue.
When I order online, I do it via proxy (Margaret being a good example). I pay for things when I must, by sending money orders.

It is unlikely I would use my own credit card though if I even had one.
The day I order CL, I will either be doing it through Margaret, or Matrix will get a money order from me.

I agree with your sentiments about the veracity of statements.

I say I am a 41 year old male Canadian ex-serviceman.
In my nickname I call myself Les the Sarge.
Only a complete fool though, would take any of the above statement at face value just because I printed it here.

Although I think my being a Canadian male named Les is not up for question by you guys heheh:)

Lastly, what did you mean by "laced"?

[Charles2222]

Les the Sarge 9-1: Two things. First, I never knew they existed before yesterday. Second, I'm guessing he's in the UK, particularly since he mentioned somebody told them to "shove off" and he does act as though he's not American. As far as anything else goes, your guess is as good as mine, as I hadn't put serious thought into buying any of the items, whatever form they may be taking.

Oh, what did I mean by laced? I used it in a general term. You usually use the term in referring to a drink that has an uknown ingredient added to it, usually to cause some form of harm. So, if someone gave you a free download with some morped spy software in there, then that would be laced.

BTW, you spoke of not using credit cards. Not to get into the other reasons for not using them, all over again, if you have any financial data on that computer I'd also think that at risk. As well, if there's any personal information, if they wish to be more hostile, may compromise your well being, such as you real name, address, bank account access, phone number, etc. I'm poorly read on spy software, but my guess is that they have so much to do when spying on you, they're probably not interested in hacking your computer, and whether there's any spy software that would enable them to do that, or that once the spy software is in, that would give them a gate to getting in some way of hacking I don't know.

[Charles2222]

One last thing. Though I have looked the site over a bit more, I've yet to find the loacation, but he may be Canadian as yourself, for he does charge more for postage outside North America.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Personal info on the system hmmm.

Well if someone looked at my computer they would likely not finding anything useful.

Phone number well I am after all publicly listed.

Hmm the fact that I post on a number of wargame forums might become apparent. Would love to see a person come on here though and try fake being me heheh.

Hmm there is my collection of pics of girls (yeah like that will be unusual heheh). Or that half of them are not even real people (I like anime remember).

Actually most people that know me, know I am an excessive extrovert (no reeeally:eek: ).

Best defense against people telling other people embarassing things about oneself, is for everyone that knows you, to be inclined to yawn in reflex to being told you do something that most might normally be uncomfortable with:D

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

That is what I thought you meant by "laced" but I wanted it more completely explained, thanks.

Yes I have experienced files before that were stuffed with "junk".

The first that comes to mind is Microsoft Windows heheh.

[Charles2222]

Les the Sarge 9-1: There's more to it than that. If it gets into hacking, they can pretty much do what they want to your computer. I'm convinced someone starting hacking into my computer through my cable modem after I stood in the way of some honary type that posted like two whole times to the non-AOW forums, and haven't seen him on this site since. It seems, to this day, that he's piggy-backing off my cable modem, so if that's the worst of it my modem speed is only reduced until I get AT&T to give me a different address (whatever that address is called).

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Yes there is always that of course.

Cable modem users with large hard drives and super fast processors not employing common sense are basically asking for it.

Those with modest machines and yesterday's news performances with dial up are not likely going to get much interest from hackers where "using you" is concerned.

But it is always possible that a person that is angry can cause serious harm.

Best defense there I suppose is to not be online.

I have heard people say whilst using the Zonealarm firewall, that they were having "numerous" reports of assumed "intrusion" attempts into their systems.

It could well be the case.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well as promised here is the report on playing the game.

Part one.

Setting up the board is easy enough done.
You can either just use a default set up (I doubt anyone will want to though), or place em yourself.
If you have ever played TR before, just put em where you always do.
Nice bit though, click done just for the sake of it during placement, and the game reminds you when you have not met your deployment limits, and what those requirements are (not suggested for sides that don't have them of course).

Playing the opening turn.
Well of course if you have never even played TR before you won't have any pre conceived pet attack strategies in mind.
I didn't labour over getting in aperfect attack, I just wanted the turn done.
It reminds you that failing to attack Poland turn one means you lose (axis player that is).

You can't save game within a player turn (so you impatient click fest demons will likely not enjoy that all to much).
I found the interface was fairly easy to master though. From a cold start, relying on intuition entirely, and letting the screen messages guide me, I was able to resolve turn one in 10-15 minutes.

So that is it to some extent. You can't expect to enjoy this game, if you can't sit down and play your whole turn through. So it is best decided to make sure you won't be interupted while playing eh.

I will post a part two when I can give some thoughts on the games ideas of AI behaviour.

[Ardle]

Here's a tip for those of you who are getting a bit paranoid about spyware and the like: click here Lavasoft and you can download for free the 'Ad-aware' utility.

By using this I found that there was a whole load of spyware and spurious-looking files in my PC, which I could erase with the click of a button.

You'd be amazed at how many sneaky little programmes those 'Gator' b*stards manage to slip on your harddrive without you having the faintest idea...

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Ad aware was only just recently updated, but I agree it helps.

I also have used a program called Spybot and one called Antispy, both do a similar task.

They root out intrusions to your system and selectively eliminate them.

It is folly to think you can go online and remain safe with just one methodology of course.
That is why I don't use just one.

In the end, the only way to remain safe, is to never ever ever ever go online ever ever ever. To not own a credit card, not own a phone, and live at no fixed address.

But not all of us are very rich, and willing to live in a motor home travelling from here to there forever.

[Karnaaj]

Yes, folks, *nuke* Gator where possible. It's an open door into your system... when I had it installed as part of another software package (the full DiVX video codec) it was used (not by the Gator forlks, I assume) to drop in a "backdoor" program - which subsequently littered my drives with (first time) a VisualBasic virus and (second time) the Chernobyl virus.

No third time.

<insert bright light here> *ba-THOOOOOOOOM*

No more Gator. No more backdoors. No more virii.

Note also that this was on a piddly 56k dialup box. The backdoor in question allowed remote access in full, and one of the "features" was to use the infected machine for Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) attacks - why yes, *your* machine was helping to bring down (attacked site). No wonder your connection was lagging then... <insert much cursing here>

ZoneAlarm was killed by said backdoor (another "feature"), else it would have seen the traffic. If you use ZA (or another software firewall) and it starts, then exits quickly, *run* do not walk to one of the antivirus databanks and look for info. H'wever, keep an eye on your blinky lights and spinning digits, and get a feel for "correct" - I first suspected oddness when, connected but with no applications running, my "connection" icon in the System Tray was dumping data full-speed. (And yes, I lagged like hell as well.) ZA was "broken" for unknown reasons, and so I glommed a couple different programs off TuCows for examining the running processes and the traffic. Then, once I found something I couldn't ID, I did a websearch...

ZA is decent software, in my opinion, but it *will* catch stuff that isn't really intrusions - the "pings" when using WinMX (peer-to-peer) for one. It also doesn't *explain* what the attempts are: I had to dig around the Web and ask someone to find out that the 500+ attempts to connect (in 20 minutes <!!>) were HalfLife (first-person shooter) clients looking for a server. (I guess whoever had been using my IP before I dialed in that time was running a game server.) I've not looked up the "UDP/TCP port 2405" that has hit eight times since I connected today, but I might... can't *hurt*. <G>

A lot of this stuff is automatic, tho. Either someone is deliberately running the software, looking for vulnerabilities... or the software is sniffing around on its own hook, possibly from an infected machine. Even if you rip out the backdoor or whatever, if it has communicated "infected here" to another machine, that IP is in the database. It doesn't mean you're extra-vulnerable (unless you've not killed your infection), but the brainless software will still try to connect to the dearly departed. "Yo! Wake up d00d, it's time to hax0r Amazon!" Think of it as spam strictly for computers... your system will ignore it unless re-infected. (And it's kinda neat to watch the connection attempts on ZA - hopefully, the rat bastard trying to do evil is being *very* frustrated.)

Ah well. Enough turning your hair white for the nonce...