The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021

[Lobster]

Someone needs to remake Emperor of the Fading Suns. Shadow Empire reminds me of that a little bit.

[wodin]

I too aren't what you'd call a sci fi fan but SE is far more than just it's theme. Amazing game and it's great to see games with this sort of depth and detail coming out in a time where instant gratification is wanted

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I'll take a retro approach and ask why we can't get our beloved wargames of yesteryear adapted to the PC, with FOW and challenging AI? For example, adaptations of classic Avalon Hill boardgames with standard Terrain Effects Charts (TEC) and Combat Results Tables (CRT), should be relatively easy to develop. Plus make them editable (an editor for most everything (TEC, CRT, graphics, etc.) is a must) so players can make modifications or even re-create other games or make their own. A true hex-and-counter Wargame Design Kit (WDK) for the modern age. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Ever played Advanced Tactics Gold? I have, and I believe it checks at least some of those checkboxes (map/scenario editors and heavily moddable at least). AI gives me run for the money on land with some roads on it, but falls short with infrastructure (road building) and naval logistics. Maybe something to improve on? Check it out, or newer Shadow Empire from same dev.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3103 ... tics_Gold/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1154 ... ow_Empire/

Check this campaign/mod for ATG:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5102585

[altipueri]

And the recent Decisive Campaigns - Ardennes is also from Vic of Advanced Tactics and Shadow Empire.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

Then in 1994, we have the "Revolution".



I can't emphasize enough how world changing PANZER GENERAL was.

It was the first game to combine a fully mouse driven interface and high resolution 256 color graphics in a way that the average person could get into.

Battle Isle 2 was first. Why did you skip Battle Isle 2? I dare to argue that Battle Isle 2 was the revolution, and if I want to be mean (maybe I do), I could claim that Panzer General is Battle Isle 2 with Second World War skin. Just look at it and try to argue it's not the case.



Game play video on YouTube

If you haven't played Battle Isle series before and want to experience it first hand to find out whether or not I'm on high, you can buy entire series from Good Old Games or download Advanced Strategic Command which is a modern & free derivative.

By the way, I like Battle Isle series (2 & 3 especially) better than Panzer General & derivatives (Allied General, Panzer Corps etc.) Wanna know the coolest thing in BI games? Infantry stacks with transport units! That is, when infantry dismounts APC, the APC stays on the map and can contribute to battle with its machine guns and encircling the enemy. When infantry or gun in Panzer General dismounts the transport, Sdkfz 251 counter practically gets flipped over and isn't there anymore to support dismounted passengers

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

By the way, I like Battle Isle series (2 & 3 especially) better than Panzer General & derivatives (Allied General, Panzer Corps etc.)

I still have all the Battle Isles on cds and the manuals. How sad is that? [:D]

But then I also have Panzer General and Allied General. Even worse, Windows 3.1 on floppys. [8|]

[Rosseau]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

By the way, I like Battle Isle series (2 & 3 especially) better than Panzer General & derivatives (Allied General, Panzer Corps etc.)

I still have all the Battle Isles on cds and the manuals. How sad is that? [:D]

But then I also have Panzer General and Allied General. Even worse, Windows 3.1 on floppys. [8|]

Well, you'll be in good shape if Win11 is a disaster.

Hope not, though.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

What I want to see is a combination of a FPS, flight sim, & RTS, thousands of players on a theatre-wide map (every human is an officer, commanding platoons/torpedo boats/squadrons on up-yep, needing some good bot code), fully dynamic world.

Maybe that could be possible by expanding already established and successful game franchise. Like a DLC for World of Warcraft on its heyday, that would have added some siege engines, targets for said siege engines (gates, guard towers, whatever else), maps to the commanders, and waypoints/objectives to the rest of the players (decided by the commanders).

Other than that, does this qualify?

[Kuokkanen]

Some interesting discussion about AI. I have some experiences to share. I recall reading a game review about a helicopter sim, Comanche I believe. Reviewer describes he ordered a wingman to attack an enemy helicopter. He expected AI wingman to fly straight toward the target, but instead wingman stopped in a mountain pass or something, and waited there to ambush the incoming enemy. It worked.

I had played Command & Conquer 3 demo, skirmish. I got some infantry ready and sent them along a road to do some recon. Along came enemy infantry force. Seeing my numerical superiority, enemy infantry turned around and occupied a building that was behind of them. BRILLIANT move from AI! That right there sold the game for me, and I bought the full game on DVD.

I remember watching a friend playing Combat Mission 2 demo. AI's Red (Army) soldiers started throwing Molotov cocktails at flamethrower tank. Tank put on reverse gear, cocktails fell short, and then tank returned fire with a MG 34 WITHOUT PLAYER INPUT!

I'd LOVE to see more of this sort of stuff in turn based and wego games. I want to see my AI soldiers and officers to use their own consideration, decision making, and initiative. I want to see my aircraft flying on appropriate altitude without me giving an order for it. I want to give my recon unit an order to do recon (or to hold fire) and them doing so without revealing themselves to an enemy by attacking them first. I want to see my ATG crew to take stock of available ammunition and consider should they fire at a new target, or wait for it to come closer for better hit chance and penetration (or leave the Jeep for nearby machine gun crew). I want to see that same ATG crew to panic, shoot too early, and run away while leaving the gun behind.

ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION, DEVELOPERS!?

[Soar_Slitherine]

ORIGINAL: geforth

Shadow Empire is actually one of the best 4x games I have ever played. Every part of the game is well developed and I especially love the resource system. It is not infinite and the system contains small production chains. Furthermore every playthrough is unique and you have to deal with problems and last but not least the wargame system is the icing on the cake.

I have only two wishes for the whole game: shorter ai times and maybe a dlc for space exploration.

I've been enjoying Shadow Empire and it does a lot of pretty interesting things, but its use of IGOUGO turn resolution because of its traditional hex-and-counter wargame roots does definitely hurt the AI processing time and hold the AI back somewhat. In a similar game that used WEGO turn resolution instead, all the regimes on the map could play at the same time (including AI regimes planning their moves while the player is playing), which, in the modern era of multi-core CPUs, would greatly expand the computing resources available for use by the AI.

[DingBat]

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

ORIGINAL: geforth

Shadow Empire is actually one of the best 4x games I have ever played. Every part of the game is well developed and I especially love the resource system. It is not infinite and the system contains small production chains. Furthermore every playthrough is unique and you have to deal with problems and last but not least the wargame system is the icing on the cake.

I have only two wishes for the whole game: shorter ai times and maybe a dlc for space exploration.

I've been enjoying Shadow Empire and it does a lot of pretty interesting things, but its use of IGOUGO turn resolution because of its traditional hex-and-counter wargame roots does definitely hurt the AI processing time and hold the AI back somewhat. In a similar game that used WEGO turn resolution instead, all the regimes on the map could play at the same time (including AI regimes planning their moves while the player is playing), which, in the modern era of multi-core CPUs, would greatly expand the computing resources available for use by the AI.

I don't have any opinion on whether or not SE would be better of as a WEGO game, but can you explain your reasoning on how it would be better for AI processing?

In an IGO game, the AI exactly knows the state of the world and can make the best moves possible. In a WEGO game, you probably have to devote some thought to predicting what the players moves will be, or to "cheating" and examining the players moves and predicting their outcomes. This would absolutely be an additional burden on the AI.

I also don't understand how a WEGO game would make better use of multi-core CPUs.

I mean, if you just want to say that the AI turns in SE take too long, then just say that. It's far more likely that's a result of poor optimization than of the fundamental game mechanic.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

ORIGINAL: geforth

Shadow Empire is actually one of the best 4x games I have ever played. Every part of the game is well developed and I especially love the resource system. It is not infinite and the system contains small production chains. Furthermore every playthrough is unique and you have to deal with problems and last but not least the wargame system is the icing on the cake.

I have only two wishes for the whole game: shorter ai times and maybe a dlc for space exploration.

I've been enjoying Shadow Empire and it does a lot of pretty interesting things, but its use of IGOUGO turn resolution because of its traditional hex-and-counter wargame roots does definitely hurt the AI processing time and hold the AI back somewhat. In a similar game that used WEGO turn resolution instead, all the regimes on the map could play at the same time ....

only someone who has never played Pride of Nations could write this [8D]

in both games the challenge is giving the AI the time to make decent decisions, it really has nothing to do with whether the design is WEGO or IGOUGO

[Soar_Slitherine]

ORIGINAL: DingBat
I don't have any opinion on whether or not SE would be better of as a WEGO game, but can you explain your reasoning on how it would be better for AI processing? ... I also don't understand how a WEGO game would make better use of multi-core CPUs.

In an IGOUGO game, the possibility for an AI to perform analysis on the game state during another player's turn is limited because the game state changes every time the other player makes a move, potentially rendering any existing calculations out-of-date. Making heavy use of multithreading (i.e. multiple CPU cores) for processing a single AI is not necessarily easy or practical either - you can only compartmentalize the calculations so much, especially if information can become out-of-date because of things like a random element to combat resolution or fog of war being uncovered by moves.

In a WEGO system where all the players plan their moves first and they are then executed simultaneously, it is possible for each AI in play to perform their analysis of the game state in parallel utilizing different cores of a multicore CPU because they are all working from a game state that is fixed until their next turn. Since that means you can make the AI players play in the background during a player's turn, you can also have them take much longer without causing turn processing times to become annoyingly long, provided the player has enough to do each turn.

Obviously, this is more relevant for games with a lot of moving parts that require processing power to account for and potentially lots of different AI sides like Shadow Empire, compared to games with only two players or a limited scale (and of course the game would need to be designed for it from the ground up). However, I do also like WEGO for faster turn times (and less exploiting stuff like reloading a turn to scout different areas or obtain favorable combat results) in PBEM games with lots of players.

In an IGO game, the AI exactly knows the state of the world and can make the best moves possible. In a WEGO game, you probably have to devote some thought to predicting what the players moves will be, or to "cheating" and examining the players moves and predicting their outcomes. This would absolutely be an additional burden on the AI.

An IGO AI should ideally make some predictions about what its opponent can or might do on its next turn, to avoid putting itself in a vulnerable position. I don't see AI under a WEGO system as radically different in that regard, but being able to fully exploit multicore CPUs should create quite a lot of room to absorb any overhead. But hey, I am not an actual AI expert, I only dabble in programming, so maybe I am missing some big implementation difficulty. Cheating by looking at other players' moves is not compatible with running multiple AIs in parallel.

I mean, if you just want to say that the AI turns in SE take too long, then just say that. It's far more likely that's a result of poor optimization than of the fundamental game mechanic.

I recall reading Vic estimate before his summer holiday that he could reduce Shadow Empire's AI turn times by 50% if he focused on AI optimization. However, turn processing times on large maps (which I personally don't play in singleplayer because of this issue) in Shadow Empire can get into double digits of minutes.

EDIT: Clarification.

[altipueri]

The number and variety of games is excellent - it is like a smorgasbord in that you can choose pretty much whatever you like.


What is less good is the low number of people who play wargames. It is almost a social blunder to admit to it.

[gamer78]

ORIGINAL: altipueri

The number and variety of games is excellent - it is like a smorgasbord in that you can choose pretty much whatever you like.


What is less good is the low number of people who play wargames. It is almost a social blunder to admit to it.

variety of what?[:D] Seriously why selling these games outside US market? Already this market 'loyal market' buying these games 3 times.. I don't think wargames low in global market.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: altipueri

What is less good is the low number of people who play wargames. It is almost a social blunder to admit to it.

Entirely depends on what you call a wargame. Lots of very popular FPS that are wargames. Some are part of esports tournaments. The days when gaming is a social stigma are gone.

[ThomasJay]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: altipueri

What is less good is the low number of people who play wargames. It is almost a social blunder to admit to it.

Entirely depends on what you call a wargame. Lots of very popular FPS that are wargames. Some are part of esports tournaments. The days when gaming is a social stigma are gone.

I don't consider FPS to be wargames, even if they are are war themed. Different genre imho, but those are what most people think of when I've told them I mostly wargame. If I try to explain what type of games I actually play eyes will tend to glaze over and I'll get odd looks. So I'm not sure the more general acceptance of gaming as a hobby extends to traditional wargames.

[kam99]

ORIGINAL: geforth

Shadow Empire is actually one of the best 4x games I have ever played. Every part of the game is well developed and I especially love the resource system. It is not infinite and the system contains small production chains. Furthermore every playthrough is unique and you have to deal with problems and last but not least the wargame system is the icing on the cake.

I have only two wishes for the whole game: shorter ai times and maybe a dlc for space exploration.

I bought Shadow Empire when it first came out but I just couldn't get to grips with it.

I realise I am probably missing out and wish there was an easy route for a novice to get into it.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I try to explain what type of games I actually play eyes will tend to glaze over and I'll get odd looks. So I'm not sure the more general acceptance of gaming as a hobby extends to traditional wargames.

Just show them this video. Besides I've seen many youngsters play Warhammer miniature games on the tables and read stories about them getting excited about BattleTech even.

ORIGINAL: kam99

I bought Shadow Empire when it first came out but I just couldn't get to grips with it.

I realise I am probably missing out and wish there was an easy route for a novice to get into it.

At least YouTube has a bunch of videos that go to details about the game, starting here.

[Rosseau]

Good video, thanks.

I have also gotten funny looks when I tell people about all the ACW battlefields I've visited. Some may think it's kind of creepy, but I say, "If it was you who fought and died there, wouldn't you want someone to have remembered?"

I also suspect visiting the WW2 sites in Europe would seem much less odd. And I admit, wargaming fueled my interest in the ACW sites. I didn't go there just to honor the dead, but also to see where they fought.