Steel Tigers?

[cathar1244]

Re: Matrix and Vassal, seems it was a thing at one point in time.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... hp?t=75235

Cheers

[76mm]

Re: Matrix and Vassal, seems it was a thing at one point in time.

Wow, that thread includes a truly epic necro--16 years (between 2005 and 2021)!

[Zovs]

Per the VASSAL website Matrix does not currently own VASSAL and further VASSAL states:

In the beginning…
Vassal began life as Virtual Advanced Squad Leader (VASL) in 1996, written by our founder Rodney Kinney. VASL was for playing Advanced Squad Leader only, but its promise as a general virtual tabletop was obvious and by the end of 2002, Vassal was born and VASL transformed from a standalone program into one of many modules for Vassal.

Current staff
Joel Uckelman
Developer and site maintainer
Brent Easton
Developer
Brian Reynolds
Developer
Tim McCarron
Module library maintainer, wiki moderator, forum moderator
Rich Johnston
News feed moderator
Contributors
Many people have contributed code or documentation to Vassal (and to VASL before that):

No where have I heard except here 16 years ago that MG own's VASSAL. Seems like a false flag to me.

[Lobster]

Ah, so David Heath and Erik Rutins lied all those years ago. Oh, and Rodney Kinney too. Oh my.

Makes me wonder what happened to this plan. More Steel Panthers pie in the sky?

[Zovs]

And this solves everything, case closed!

https://forum.vassalengine.org/t/learni ... l/73166/10?

[Zovs]

For those that don't click links:

uckelman
Nov '21
"I was searching for other videos on Vassal and this popped up in my search engine:"

Oh geez, I completely forgot about that! Thanks for explaining.

That page caused confusion for years after they published it. The headline is utterly misleading—they really meant “Uses”, not “Acquires”.

[wodin]

My first time on the general forum since the new forum and I find that Steel Tigers is dead. I haven't bought a new computer wargame in I don't know how long and at this point the only one I plan to buy is Second Front. Things like this, and the fact that I can't tweak computer games to meet my preferences are the reason that I've gone back to board games after all these years. Several years ago I said I'd never go back to boardgames, but here I am...it took me a couple of decades but I finally realized that computer wargames will probably never deliver what I want, especially when I want it.

A very interesting post here. Not being a board wargamer, I have nothing to go back to! So, in my situation, new releases like Decisive Campaigns: Ardennes Offensive and Campaign Series: Vietnam have certainly had my attention, and both seem pretty open to tweaking.

I did once try ASL solitaire and couldn't get past the rules. But there was a visceral aspect to it that maybe 76mm alludes to. Not sure, as I am not him.

And yes, Wodin, that was SSI's Close Assault, an amazing game in its day. I didn't know a follow-up was even planned and, as you report, abandoned.

Actually MAtrix had two games advertised but never finished development. You maybe able to google them. Nothing to9 do with SSI. They where what drew me to MAtrix all those years ago.

[cathar1244]

@Zovs

Actually, all the two links display are completely different statements.

The Vassal link states "uses" (not "acquires"), but the Matrix statement is wholly different:

Matrix Games is pleased to announce that it has acquired the rights to the VASSAL Engine from Vassal Engineering (www.vassalengine.org) and intends to improve and support it as a new platform for game publishing.

"acquired the rights to" ... hmm. Does that mean they struck a deal with Vassal to use Vassal for commercial vice personal use ?

Not really clear what went on. Vassal is obviously still its own thing, but some kind of dance between the two organizations took place.

Cheers

[Zovs]

@Zovs

Actually, all the two links display are completely different statements.

The Vassal link states "uses" (not "acquires"), but the Matrix statement is wholly different:

Matrix Games is pleased to announce that it has acquired the rights to the VASSAL Engine from Vassal Engineering (www.vassalengine.org) and intends to improve and support it as a new platform for game publishing.

"acquired the rights to" ... hmm. Does that mean they struck a deal with Vassal to use Vassal for commercial vice personal use ?

Not really clear what went on. Vassal is obviously still its own thing, but some kind of dance between the two organizations took place.

Cheers

Per Joel Uckleman reply:

Oh geez, I completely forgot about that! Thanks for explaining.

That page caused confusion for years after they published it. The headline is utterly misleading—they really meant “Uses”, not “Acquires”.

So MG never acquired VASSAL per Joel.

[cathar1244]

@Zovs

Hi Zovs,

Yes, I saw that. My point (not made clearly) is that Joel's reply didn't really explain what was going on.

I mean, anyone can "use" Vassal. But it seems that more than that went on (a commercial license, who knows) for it to be mentioned on both the Matrix and Vassal discussion boards.

That said, I don't see the advantage Matrix perceived in "using" Vassal. So far as I know, no Matrix products used Vassal as an engine for a game. And from I've read of Vassal, it sounds like it can be configured to reflect the mechanics of wargame rules ... practically being more of a rival for a "canned product" firm like Matrix than a supporting tool.

All the above is speculation on my part.

Cheers

[Zovs]

@cathar1244

Yeah, I just remember all the "fear" instigated by that MG post for all the module makers and even the devs. Like Matrix Games was going to create/send out cease and desist order to shut down all the VASSAL module makers. The rub is that VASSAL is and has been primarily used for playing board war games from all the various companies from 1958-2022, like Avalon Hill (defunct), SPI (defunct), GDW (defunct), GRD (defunct), PWG (defunct), Yanqunito (defunct), Decision Games (DG), Multi an Publishing (MMP), GMT games, Compass Games, etc.

None of which was ever true. Matrix has no power over VASSAL, otherwise they would have shut it down ages ago and made folks buy modules like how Aide de Camp did (which is why people stopped using ADC and paying for modules as it made no sense to a war gamer (consumer) who shelled out $30-300 per board game to fork out another $40-60 to play the board game on the PC).

Hence the fear 16 years ago and every time this comes up and rears its ugly head, I have to point out its all not true, Matrix doe snot own VASSAL and never has (per my knowledge based on Joel's responses over the years).

[wodin]

My first time on the general forum since the new forum and I find that Steel Tigers is dead. I haven't bought a new computer wargame in I don't know how long and at this point the only one I plan to buy is Second Front. Things like this, and the fact that I can't tweak computer games to meet my preferences are the reason that I've gone back to board games after all these years. Several years ago I said I'd never go back to boardgames, but here I am...it took me a couple of decades but I finally realized that computer wargames will probably never deliver what I want, especially when I want it.

A very interesting post here. Not being a board wargamer, I have nothing to go back to! So, in my situation, new releases like Decisive Campaigns: Ardennes Offensive and Campaign Series: Vietnam have certainly had my attention, and both seem pretty open to tweaking.

I did once try ASL solitaire and couldn't get past the rules. But there was a visceral aspect to it that maybe 76mm alludes to. Not sure, as I am not him.

And yes, Wodin, that was SSI's Close Assault, an amazing game in its day. I didn't know a follow-up was even planned and, as you report, abandoned.

Remembered the names of the cancelled Matric games. Combat Leader (to be set on the East Front) and Close Assault Code of Honour (set on the Pacific)

[Lobster]

Amazing how one word can create such confusion.

BTW Decision Games and Hexwars have a deal where SPI games cannot appear as Vassal modules in the 'public domain'. Hasn't stopped anyone as far as I know.

[RFalvo69]

The trades, back in 2005, clearly stated that Matrix acquired VASSAL (just google for "VASSAL Matrix Games"). If there was a miscommunication it afflicted all of them.

Since VASSAL was born in 1996, I wonder why the current copyright starts in 2009. Was that the year they got the rights back? Matrix never acquired VASSAL and in 2009 it simply moved to the current group of developers? I honestly don't know.

[Zovs]

The trades, back in 2005, clearly stated that Matrix acquired VASSAL (just google for "VASSAL Matrix Games"). If there was a miscommunication it afflicted all of them.

Since VASSAL was born in 1996, I wonder why the current copyright starts in 2009. Was that the year they got the rights back? Matrix never acquired VASSAL and in 2009 it simply moved to the current group of developers? I honestly don't know.

Per Joel Uckelman:

"They acquired the rights to Vassal the same way anyone else does: By accepting the LGPL license under which Vassal is distributed.

As I said, it’s a confusing, confused announcement Matrix made. I’d been hoping that we’d not still be hearing about a press release from 2005 in 2022…"

End of story really! Matrix has never owned VASSAL.

[76mm]

That page caused confusion for years after they published it. The headline is utterly misleading—they really meant “Uses”, not “Acquires”.

LOL, slight difference in meaning! I guess they didn't have the legal team (or anyone else that understands IP) review that press release before issuing it...

[flibby]

It is amazing to me that one of the most popular war games in the history of computer wargaming is not being updates with an apparent sense of urgency.

There is no doubt that this game has an extensive following.

The lack of a focused effort to develop a clear source of revenue is simply baffling ... and sad, because this is my all time favorite game ...

... very sad ...

Completely agree. It's a baffling decision by Matrix not to expedite it whether that be with a new team or otherwise.

[Michael T]

My first time on the general forum since the new forum and I find that Steel Tigers is dead. I haven't bought a new computer wargame in I don't know how long and at this point the only one I plan to buy is Second Front. Things like this, and the fact that I can't tweak computer games to meet my preferences are the reason that I've gone back to board games after all these years. Several years ago I said I'd never go back to boardgames, but here I am...it took me a couple of decades but I finally realized that computer wargames will probably never deliver what I want, especially when I want it.

My sentiments exactly. Though I never really gave up on board games. Though Second Front will only release as a one player game initially. Hopefully they will eventually make Multiplayer a feature. I do recall you telling me you sold all your board games. I sold many of mine too, now paying a lot more to reclaim many of them. LOL

[rwenstrup]

Interesting you should mention board game vs computer games ... when computer games started coming out I was very reluctant to switch because I feared they would not support the games.

With board games you have the game ... and can always play it. Most games have not been critical to me, but Steel Panthers and the Ageod games are ones that I really like playing ... and seeing Ageod changing their approach ... and especially this situation with Steel Panthers

... the nightmare comes true!!!

[76mm]

I do recall you telling me you sold all your board games. I sold many of mine too, now paying a lot more to reclaim many of them. LOL

Yup, I sold all of my board games other than Wooden Ships & Iron Men a few years ago; I had a smallish collection but some pretty good stuff. Luckily for me, my interests have changed enough over the years that I'm not really re-buying any of what I sold off... I have a cat, so initially figured that that ruled out board games, but then I rejiggered somethings in my house and have a decent set up now, although not as big as I would like, so VASSAL comes to the rescue for the big stuff.

It only took me about twenty years to figure out that computer games will never deliver exactly what I'm looking for; now I've switched to finding board games that are close to what I want which have a VASSAL module, tweaking the rules however I see fit, and then tweaking the VASSAL module accordingly. Haven't gotten very far in the process yet, but once it's complete I'll have games that I really enjoy that I'll be able to play for, well, forever.