The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

[histgamer]

I am not saying it's not a wargame. But I wouldn't say the audience of the two is the same and so marketing the two and pricing the two the same would be a strategy that is asking to fail.

ORIGINAL: rogo727

So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables .

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

[rodney727]

Both games are put out by the same company. How can one be NITCHE and the other not?. I do agree with you tho. witp wouldn't sell well on the iPad while panzer corps would.

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

I am not saying it's not a wargame. But I wouldn't say the audience of the two is the same and so marketing the two and pricing the two the same would be a strategy that is asking to fail.

ORIGINAL: rogo727

So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables .

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

[histgamer]

Because who sells it has little to do with whether something is Niche or not, the market or the audience for the game determines that. Panzer Corps is a game that appeals to a wide range of players, including non grogs and even casual players, WiTP is something that would not appeal to pretty much anyone except grogs or hardcore history nerds interested in something new.

Also really they are not put out by the same company, they are published by the same company but the companies that make them are different and so are the developers.

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Both games are put out by the same company. How can one be NITCHE and the other not?. I do agree with you tho. witp wouldn't sell well on the iPad while panzer corps would.

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

I am not saying it's not a wargame. But I wouldn't say the audience of the two is the same and so marketing the two and pricing the two the same would be a strategy that is asking to fail.

ORIGINAL: rogo727

So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables .

[Ashcloud]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Sad that again you joke about bankruptcy...it's $10 off of a 13 yr old game (max resolution is 800x600? Seriously?) and $10 off of an 11 yr old game.

Actually, SPWAW-GE is normally $70 and is reduced by $40 to a sale price of $30 for this week. The quality of the gameplay and the content in the mega-campaigns makes it IMHO an incredible bargain at that price.

Regards,

- Erik

Yes, it is fantastic but does it have resolution higher than 800x600? Sorry answer is above, afraid I am going to have to save my money this time - what a relief no need for the enforcers to bug me yet, desperately wanted the mega-campaign but not at 800X600 resolution.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Dutchman55555,

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: LRRP

Erik, I would advise you focus on Resolution/Windows improvements as most of us no longer have antique monitors. lol

I feel for Matrix here.

They have a full catalogue of "classic" games, most 6-13 years old.

In no way, shape, or form would it be profitable for them to be renovated for optimal performance on current systems.

But so many of them are still priced at $40-70 that I can't imagine the sales figures numbering more than a dozen or two per month per title.

They're stuck with an increasingly aging catalogue with a dribble of new games each year to try and ignite/maintain interest with their regular customers.

That's a tough, tough model to keep profitable.

You call the release schedule we've been on for the past few years a "dribble"? It's been increasing each year and is at record levels for our history. Contrary to your post we are not only releasing more games per year than ever, but improving them with each release and expanding to entirely new platforms. Your post is simply an alternate reality. You seem convinced we're doing everything wrong and assume that we are in decline to justify your point of view. In fact, we are growing at a remarkable pace and back catalog sales are strong.

SPWAW was the first game we actually released, back in 2000. We released it for free to the community and updated it for years afterwards.

In general, we support our games long after most companies move on. Wargames also have a longer life than most games as the amount of work it takes to develop a great one is not easily repeated. Resolution and state of the art graphics take a back seat to gameplay for most. Our new games have modern graphics and interfaces as well as full support for all resolutions, but an older wargame is only really "old" when the gameplay is replaced by a newer and better wargame.

I would also love another update for SPWAW, but that's not possible right now. However, making a new SP is something we can and will do in the future, as soon as we are ready.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Hi guys, we are not reopening the pricing discussion, fair warning.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

For the niche vs. non-niche discussion... you can design a wargame to be less of a niche game. UOC is a great example, as is Panzer Corps. These wargames will sell to far more people than a War in the Pacific. They will still not sell nearly as many copies as a fully mainstream game. The fact is that while most people in the world understand and would be happy to play "Tetris", far fewer are interested in refighting WWII on the Eastern Front, regardless of how well you do the interface and how well you streamline the complexity. These games will also not address the need and interest many wargamers have for more hard-core games like War in the Pacific or Steel Panthers, or ones that focus on less popular subjects, like the Seven Years War or the campaigns of Alexander the Great. As stated earlier, wargaming is a healthy niche but it is a niche and wargames come in all shapes and sizes that cater to larger or smaller segments of that niche.

The basic question you have to answer is this. If you gave every person in the world a choice between a free game of Pac-Man or War in the Pacific, what percentage do you think would choose War in the Pacific? If you gave a wargamer the same choice, how many would choose Pac-Man?

Regards,

- Erik

[Aurelian]

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

Instead of crying for censorship, why not try ignoring the thread?

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

Instead of crying for censorship, why not try ignoring the thread?

Your whining makes my point for me.

Oh, as stated by TPTB, "censorship" would be deleting the thread.

Locking it, as your post shows, is acknowledgement that it has run its course.

[vonRocko]

It's a shame you don't own the forum, then you could impose your will on anyone you like, till then tough luck. Where do you get off calling for a lock. Who are you,the thread judge? Like I said before, ignore it. But I don't think you can.

[Rocko911]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

Instead of crying for censorship, why not try ignoring the thread?

Your whining makes my point for me.

Oh, as stated by TPTB, "censorship" would be deleting the thread.

Locking it, as your post shows, is acknowledgement that it has run its course.

Aurelian, all I can say is wow. Too bad your judgment is as limited as your viewpoint.

[Rocko911]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

LOL, proof the niche is not doing so well is the mergers and companies disappearing. Case in point Ageod, Matrix/Slitherine Merger and so on. Strong companies do not merge, because they do not need to.

[Jevhaddah]

I would agree that it would be nice to have the older matrix titles updated for modern Pc's.

My own personal solution to this is to run the games on various old laptops I have collected over the years.

It works for me [;)]

Cheers

Jev

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: LRRP

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

LOL, proof the niche is not doing so well is the mergers and companies disappearing. Case in point Ageod, Matrix/Slitherine Merger and so on. Strong companies do not merge, because they do not need to.

You nailed it beautifully here. If Slitherine wasn't hurting financially inside it wouldn't propose mergers to every possible publisher that poses a threat to their business. If they were doing well they'd let them die out and acquire them wholesale.

The merging with other companies is an attempt to overshadow their lack of financial success, by creating an illusion that their "expanding" in all sectors. In actuality, if you think about Iain's responses just for a minute of the immense success he claims they're having (you have to read between the lines of his jibberishness) you'll realize why you're seeing the things you're seeing. He of course has included the AGEOD sales that he's acquired within his numbers of sales. Don't be so naive. Good one Iain!

He's a business man and he's a hell of a bullshitter to boot.

Look at the specifics. Would a company that is expanding as Iain suggest be putting off forum improvements for their sites and be hosting a publication that is failing (Wargamer)? They don't have the financial means to update their old products, their old forum software or to even examine their marketing analytics. The answer to why they fall short in so many sectors of the business that they're in is because they lack the financial means to do so.

Merging with competitors may buy some time for a company that is lacking essential profits, but it wont make up for an uneducated and incompetent Marketing Manger in the long run.

Again, don't be so naive.

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Time to close this thread as it's going in circles.

This niche is healthy. This niche is growing.

No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

Instead of crying for censorship, why not try ignoring the thread?

Your whining makes my point for me.

Oh, as stated by TPTB, "censorship" would be deleting the thread.

Locking it, as your post shows, is acknowledgement that it has run its course.

By closing a thread to prevent further conversation of a particular topic because a wargaming publisher doesn't like what people are saying, displays a form of censorship. Deleting a thread is also a form of censorship. But preventing future discusses of a particular topic is most certainly censorship.

Destroying future conversation of a particular subject is just as bad if not worse than destroying already posted conversation of a particular subject.

[Erik Rutins]

...and yet, with regret, thread locked. This discussion truly has run its course and it keeps circling back to the beginning, with the same posters saying the same things. I don't see the point in recycling discussion points again and again or in allowing this negative speculation to continue. That kind of posting, as exemplified by Grogmaster, does not have anything to do with a constructive discussion about pricing. As far as I can tell, it is intentionally destructive. Whatever your grudge against us is, please keep it to yourself.

Grogmaster, I think it's time you re-read the forum rules. Personal insults against community members and trolling are both against those rules. You've been warned and will get a vacation from the forum to reconsider those rules if you cross the line again.

Regards,

- Erik

[Rebel Yell]

How did this spammer post in a 12 year old locked thread?

[bayonetbrant]

clearly it's not locked when we're able to post in it

[Matt R]

My heart jumped when I saw SP:WaW being discussed.