Letters from Iwo Jima

[Sarge]

Arlington National Cemetery and Yasukuni Jinja: History, Memory, and the Sacred

Arlington National Cemetery and Yasukuni Jinja (The Shrine of the Peaceful Land) are symbols of the histories of the United States of America and Japan. Arlington National Cemetery and Yasukuni Jinja have a common purpose--to honor the war dead--but the two are very different. Arlington National Cemetery, which was created in controversy, is today is a place of peaceful repose. Yasukuni Jinja had very dignified origins, yet now is embroiled in disputes.

The “Yasukuni Problem” (Japanese remorse for its actions in World War II and the survival of militarism), continuing war-related litigation, and territorial conflicts with China and Korea whose roots also lie in earlier wars all remain issues in 2005. In the U.S., World War II, but not Arlington National Cemetery, was the subject of intense debate in 1995 and 2003 over the “Enola Gay” exhibit at the Smithsonian on the 50th anniversary of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the end of World War II. However, American debates hardly compare to the ferocity and protracted character of the war-related issues that continue to stalk Japan.

Arlington National Cemetery, in Washington, D.C., grew from the bitter circumstances of the American Civil War, 1861-1865. Some of the early fighting of the war was very close to Washington, D.C., and Arlington, an estate owned by Mary Anna Custis Lee, the wife of Confederate General Robert E. Lee, was near the battle sites. Union Army officials confiscated the estate and used the land as a hastily improvised military graveyard, in effect punishing Lee for his role in the Civil War. After the war, Custis Lee, Robert E. Lee’s son, successfully sued the federal government for the loss of the family estate. The federal government established Arlington National Cemetery in 1883.

Yasukuni Jinja, located on Kudan Hill in Tokyo, was created as a Shinto religious shrine in 1869 to honor soldiers who fought in a civil war to bring the Emperor Meiji to power in 1868. The formal title of “Yasukuni Jinja (The Shrine of the Peaceful Land) was bestowed in 1879 to proclaim that Japan was at peace because of the sacrifice of its war dead. Those enshrined are revered as deities, i.e. kami, “noble gods.” Honors were extended beyond military personnel to include civilians who worked for the military and women and children who died in certain war-related circumstances.

Established with elaborate imperial and Shinto ceremonies, Yasukuni Jinja became a major national institution as Japan fought in the first Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895), the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), World War I , the Manchurian Incident (1931) and then the second Sino-Japanese War and World War II, known in Japan as the Greater East Asian War (1937-45). Yasukuni Jinja was revered as the site honoring Japan’s military who gave their lives in the service of the emperor. The names, rank and places of death of fallen veterans and others to be honored were preserved for veneration. Yasukuni Jinja today is controversial because of its close association with the monarchy, and particularly with the wars fought in the name of the emperor. Above all, the fact that fourteen Class A war criminals, and numerous Class B and C war criminals, have been enshrined as gods at Yasukuni Jinja is a source of anger to Chinese and Koreans. Chinese casualties in the Fifteen Year War (1931-45), are estimated to be ten to twenty million or more, while Korea experienced half a century of harsh Japanese colonial rule.

[Sarge]

Contest to kill 100 people using a sword

The contest to kill 100 people using a sword was a series of newspaper stories about a "contest" between two Japanese Army officers during the Japanese invasion of China. The contest was supposedly over which of them would first kill 100 people with his sword.

[Sarge]

Funny how the government of Japan have offered up apologies every VJ day for the atrocities their military inflicted on millions.

But Ike some how thinks that a few cherry picked accounts dismisses everything

Nothing better then a self appointed historian

[morvwilson]

Ike,

Cruelty on the battle field I think should be expected. After all, the idea is to kill the enemy.

Looting dead enemy soldiers? That is something that dates to the beginning of warfare. And since we are talking about people, and no two are alike, some will be more macabe than others. Again, this is to be expected.

Killing wounded enemy soldiers on the Kakoda trail? The Kakoda trail was a foot path that ran from Buna on the north side of the island to Port Moresby on the south side. Rough, steep mountainous terrain, the only way to bring out wounded was by stretcher bearers. How enthusiastic would you be about carrying out a wounded enemy soldier that may have just killed your best freind? Try reading Bill Mauldin's book Up Front, Henry Holt & Co. Inc. 1945.





The major difference you seem to be avoiding here Ike, is how were prisoners treated after they were out of the combat area?

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

Ike,

Cruelty on the battle field I think should be expected. After all, the idea is to kill the enemy.

That’s just barbaric , you Yankee dog

[Ike99]

Contest to kill 100 people using a sword

The contest to kill 100 people using a sword was a series of newspaper stories about a "contest" between two Japanese Army officers during the Japanese invasion of China. The contest was supposedly over which of them would first kill 100 people with his sword.

Did I say Japanese soldiers didn´t commit atrocities in the Pacific War against the Allies? No. Of course they did. Commonly no doubt. But I also see the Allies commited many, many atrocities in the Pacific War against the Japanese and it was also very common.

It was the nature of the Pacific War. The two sides really despised each other right down to the racial level.

So to all those who say ¨our boys¨ didn´t do that, ¨isolated case here and there¨ and other such revisionist dribble do not have the true historical picture of the Pacific War and the way it was fought.

[Ike99]

The major difference you seem to be avoiding here Ike, is how were prisoners treated after they were out of the combat area?

What?

You mean like throwing them out of planes over New Guinea saying they were trying to escape? That´s actually on a report by the way. [8|]

[KG Erwin]

So, I take it that NOBODY plays as the Japanese in any wargames? And, if you did, would you admit to it in this thread?

And, for those of you who actually watched "Letters", you couldn't find a single sympathetic Japanese character in the entire film? Not even Saigo?

What about Kuribayashi? Did he not adhere to the concepts of Bushido or "The Code of the Samurai", as they were originally intended?

It is easy to see how a code of behavior can be corrupted by evil regimes, as it has happened frequently in the past and still happens today. The corruption isn't limited by race or creed or nationality.

[Ike99]

Yep, the poor Japanese were such swell guys

Too bad any movie that portrayed them as they really were would be worse than the most graphic slasher film imaginable.

a Marine who had already collected seventeen
gold teeth, the last from a Japanese soldier on Saipan who
was wounded and still moving his hands. Sledge, in his
memoir of Peleliu and Okinawa, records an even more
excruciating scene of a wounded Japanese thrashing on
the ground as a Marine slit his cheeks open and carved
his gold-crowned teeth out with akabar....
"War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War"



Or how about this?...decorating your tanks with the severed heads of Japanese. Did you see much of this in ¨Victory at Sea¨?

Yeah I think we have a pretty good understanding of how the Allied soldiers were behaving in the Pacific.

(I censored this picture a bit mods but if it´s still too graphic feel free to pull it.)

[Bloodybucket28th]

Wow, I'm enlightened now.  Because individuals in mortal combat commit acts of cruelty and the images are ugly, the actions, goals and conduct of all governments are all equal.  GIs and Tommies in Europe shot surrending Germans and laughed, so we are all as bad as the Nazis.  Marines used body parts as trophies, so democracy is the same as any old military dictatorship. 
 
This sort of moral relativism works best when the despotic force is safely vanquished by the repulsive acts of soldiers who are thrust in the worst kind of nightmare imaginable and are expected to behave like saintly robots in the comfortable hindsight of we who know better. 
 
Yeah, every form of government is the same.  Thanks a lot for clearing that up.   

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

This sort of moral relativism works best when the despotic force is safely vanquished by the repulsive acts of soldiers who are thrust in the worst kind of nightmare imaginable and are expected to behave like saintly robots in the comfortable hindsight of we who know better. 

BloodyBrilliant.

[KG Erwin]

To Ike99: yeah, this stuff happened, and I'm not a denier. When I play SPWaW (and I usually play as the USMC), I get a peculiar pleasure out of destroying what was THEN considered to be the evil Japanese. I keep in mind what happened to the Goettge patrol on Guadalcanal, the Bataan Death March, Wake Island, Guam and Pearl Harbor. To a Marine of that time, it WAS personal.

Put me in the virtual time machine of gaming, and I have no objections to burning to death and blasting to bits the defenders of that truly evil empire.

However, as a modern world citizen, I don't hold those prejudices. Context is everything. I feel sorry for folks who still cling to those long-ago hatreds.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, I take it that NOBODY plays as the Japanese in any wargames? And, if you did, would you admit to it in this thread?

And, for those of you who actually watched "Letters", you couldn't find a single sympathetic Japanese character in the entire film? Not even Saigo?

What about Kuribayashi? Did he not adhere to the concepts of Bushido or "The Code of the Samurai", as they were originally intended?

It is easy to see how a code of behavior can be corrupted by evil regimes, as it has happened frequently in the past and still happens today. The corruption isn't limited by race or creed or nationality.

I say this with no animosity and with complete sincerity: What are you driving at here? It all seems unrelated but I'll gladly respond to each point.

Personally I've never been able to play as the Japanese in a wargame. It's not only because the thought may be abhorrent, it's also because of their military doctrine. I have a hard time playing as Germany against the Allies as well. No problem playing Germany against the Soviets. There though, it's much more that Soviet military doctrine is totally unappealing to me. Simply put, I'd much rather sink the Akagi or the Kiev than the Enterprise.

I found all the Japanese characters sympathetic in "Letters".

Sure, we're all capable of some pretty bad things but there are so many checks on us, and so many are so sensitive of anything that comes within calling distance of fascism, I don't see it happening without an apocalyptic event. Not at least on anything like the scale of WW2. I can't really go into detail here without delving in areas strictly verbotten at this site.

[Arctic Blast]

Aaaah, after another long night at work, I see this thread is still going, spinning endlessly in circles. Now, I'm going to be a bit presumptuous, and speak for everyone else for a moment...

AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHH! WHY WON'T IT DIE!?!?!?!

Ahem...there. All done. Continue with your pointless spinning, all.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Aaaah, after another long night at work, I see this thread is still going, spinning endlessly in circles. Now, I'm going to be a bit presumptuous, and speak for everyone else for a moment...

AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHH! WHY WON'T IT DIE!?!?!?!

Ahem...there. All done. Continue with your pointless spinning, all.

Don’t like the subject matter then why click on ?

And to boot , feel the need to inform everyone ?


[8|]X2

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

To Ike99: yeah, this stuff happened, and I'm not a denier. When I play SPWaW (and I usually play as the USMC), I get a peculiar pleasure out of destroying what was THEN considered to be the evil Japanese. I keep in mind what happened to the Goettge patrol on Guadalcanal, the Bataan Death March, Wake Island, Guam and Pearl Harbor. To a Marine of that time, it WAS personal.

Your not a denier because you can relate due to your experiences playing a video game. [:D]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
This thread is on the downward slope to the inevitable locking up.

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
I'll leave you to your delusions. I'm outta here.

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
See ya later.

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
Enjoy enshrouding yourself with hatred. I'm moving on.

PS: I thought you left [&:]

[Ike99]

KG Erwin -Aaaah, after another long night at work, I see this thread is still going, spinning

endlessly in circles. Now, I'm going to be a bit presumptuous, and speak for everyone else for a

moment...

AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHH! WHY WON'T IT DIE!?!?!?!

Ahem...there. All done. Continue with your pointless spinning, all.

Pointless you say? I wouldn´t say that.

We went from presenting the Allied soldier as a saintly, wholesome crusader fighting against the evil, cruel, barbaric Jap soldier, all beginning on post 4 without objection I might add to.... (after a mountain of evidence)

Yeah ¨OK¨, we did a lot of bad, cruel, barbaric things ourselves but it was ¨understandable¨ under the situation.¨

So you see this thread is making progress. It´s like pulling teeth but it´s moving along. [8D]

Maybe in another 500 post we can get some to admit it was actually ¨wrong¨ and ¨not understandable¨ to cut teeth out of live Japanese soldiers, kill wounded Japanese soldiers commonly, send heads home to their girlfriends, etc., etc. Doubtful, but you never know.

Sarge -PS: I thought you left

Yeah, so did I.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Did I say Japanese soldiers didn´t commit atrocities in the Pacific War against the Allies? No. Of course they did. Commonly no doubt. But I also see the Allies commited many, many atrocities in the Pacific War against the Japanese and it was also very common.

It was the nature of the Pacific War. The two sides really despised each other right down to the racial level.

So to all those who say ¨our boys¨ didn´t do that, ¨isolated case here and there¨ and other such revisionist dribble do not have the true historical picture of the Pacific War and the way it was fought.

Ok, I will be the one to sound off that American GI’s did nothing even remotely in the same context as these animals.

Putting the photo of the courageous Japanese soldiers in the headlines and telling the tail of a contest as who could kill 100 civilians the fastest with a sword .

That kind of sums up the mentality of the Japanese military and barbaric government of the war years.

Your transparent deliberately attempts to take out of context who Japans victims where a insert the American GI’s is hardlly going to “get some ” to forget the reality of Japans barbaric military acts during WWII .

Keep trying for that default win if you wish, but I am not going away [;)]

[morvwilson]

Ike, you seem to have trouble with scale. Comparing the actions of a few individuals in the west with the way Imperial Japanese military acted as an istitution just does not wash. It is like comparing me to a herion junkie because I drink a beer or two in a week.
 
It appears to me that you are either incapable or unwilling to recognize that evil did exist then as it does now.
 
Personally, for me in a war game, I'll play any side. (It is only a game after all) Of course I do have preferences in certain games.
 
For instance, I refuse to play Japan in Empire at Arms![:D]

[Ike99]

Ok, I will be the one to sound off that American GI’s did nothing even remotely in the same context as these animals.

These animals? Pretty much sums up your attitude yes Sarge?

I´ve yet to see one picture or one story of Japanese troops sending heads of Marines home to their family members or decorating their military equiptment with such. Would you like to produce one?

Something that was very common among the American soldiers, so much so the customs office of the United states became concerned with as so many body parts of Japanese were being shipped into the US by the soldiers.

The President of the US even had a piece of Japanese bone sent to him to use as a letter opener.

Barbaric, cruel, disgusting, morbid and transparent racism. That kind of sums up the mentality of the US military and US government of the war years as regards to Japan doesn´t it?

It´s kind of obvious Sarge, it stares one in the face no matter how hard you try to hide it behind a shield of rightchousness.

Your transparent deliberately attempts to take out of context who Japans victims where a insert the American GI’s is hardlly going to “get some ” to forget the reality of Japans barbaric military acts during WWII.

Am I trying to ¨get some¨ to forget atrocities commited by Japanese to Allied? I think clearly not considered I´ve said yeah they happened, commonly. What are you doing? Trying to minimize, excuse or simply deny those commited by the Allies against the Japanese.

Your using a logic something along the lines of...Japanese went into a village and killed 10 American POW´s. Americans went into a village and killed 9 Japanese POW´s. Therefore the American actions were ¨OK¨/¨Didn´t happen¨ and the Japanese were not/did happen. Ehhh...sorry, doesn´t work like that. Not from a legal neither a moral point of view.

Yes I saw both ¨Flags¨ and ¨Letters¨ Someone asked me that, can´t remember who but yeah I saw them.