English in Europe

[ilovestrategy]

I've noticed that a large number of players in these forums are in various parts of Europe but are perfect in English. I always thought that English was only in Great Britain. Am I wrong in assuming that? Not trying to be a wise guy, I'm genuinely curious.

[junk2drive]

This is the first forum that I ever posted in, many years ago. I came from AOL chat and IMs. I did not capitalise proper names or use much punctuation. Soon I was chastised by non native English speakers. A for being lazy and B for making it difficult for them to figure out what I was trying to say. That was back before translators. I gave in slowly but also noticed that the non English speakers had much better skill at composition and syntax that it raised the bar for me. Now I not only try to post properly but am sometimes cautious to phrase things for people that might be using a translator.

I am appalled at the posts from people in the UK.

To answer your question, outside of the USA, most countries require students to learn two or more foreign languages.

[Grymme]

In most (if not all) of Europe students study english in school. In Sweden for example we study it from the time we are ten years old (i think, maybe twelve). Then we study it for at least eight years. Then all foreign movies and tv are subtexted. We also read a lot of books, magazines etc. Also when we travel abroad, which most swedish families do at least once a year, we get to practice our english.

Many swedes also have some knowledge of a third language (generally french, german or spanish).

I am not very good at writing english but i still think that my knowledge of the language is better than many illiterate natural born americans (who appear frequently on Ricky Lake or Jerry Springer)

[billyjj]

They require a foreign language in most US schools, it is treated as a novelty and not even the teacher really expects you to actually learn French. In Europe they take studying a lot more seriously than in the US, and they don't have forced busing and integration to make life a living hell for the students that actually want to learn.

[Zakhal]

English is my best foreign language and I somtimes think in english even. But problem in europe is not english but the fact that germans want to speak german, french want to speak french, italians want to speak italian, etc. Because of this english alone isnt always enough. Ive met som germans that are very nutty about their language. I just wish everyone could have atleast one common language. As a citizen of minor country I speak finnish, swedish, english and german but even that doesnt seem to be enough at times. The big non-english countries in europe somtimes seem a bit uppity from my point-of-view. I mean I can forgive russians for having problems with english but germans? Not.

[Obsolete]

When it comes to people having problems with English, I would have to guess the people in Quebec are the most uptight about it.  Many of them still never forgave the Brits for winning that siege a few hundred years ago or so   And many still feel anything to do with English is a threat to their culture.  It wasn't that long ago that just posting a sign in English would get you arrested (no joke).  There are still places there that may still abide by that code (not sure now).  Anyone know what the current situation is over there?  

[ilovestrategy]

I learned a lot just from these posts. Thanks guys! [:)]

[wilecki]

ORIGINAL: Grymme

In most (if not all) of Europe students study english in school. In Sweden for example we study it from the time we are ten years old (i think, maybe twelve). Then we study it for at least eight years. Then all foreign movies and tv are subtexted. We also read a lot of books, magazines etc. Also when we travel abroad, which most swedish families do at least once a year, we get to practice our english.

It is exactly the same almost in the whole Europe. It makes traveling and moving around Europe very easy. Two years ago I moved to the Netherlands (originally I come from Poland) and I've decided to stay. Currently I'm trying to learn Dutch and speak a lot with the natives but the moment they hear something wrong with my accent or anything they automatically switch to English not allowing me to practice ;P

[Terminus]

I think it depends on the country. In Denmark, you learn English from the 4th Grade, German from about the 5th or 6th, and French, Spanish, Russian etc in high school.

[joeblack1862]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I am appalled at the posts from people in the UK.

I'll bite. I am from the UK. I am guessing you didn't mean it the way it came out but I still have a point to make.

I had the pleasure to learn French at school, Russian as a basic translator (sadly lost most of the skill now and just about recognise the words and a few sentences through lack of use) and Dutch at university. Does that make me unusual in my population? No, it doesn't. My daughter at 14 who is studying French is classed as equivelant to an 18 - 20 year old French speaker and writer. She went on a trip to France recently and was appalled by the poor grammar of most native French students.

A lot of the Russians I dealt with were barely able to use the correct grammar when speaking or writing there own language.

The Dutch were incredibly annoying (in a nice way) in that they always wanted to use English to improve so they hindered my attempts to learn Dutch [:D]
A lot of the Dutch didn't know Dutch grammar.

I think you will find many fine English speakers and writers in the UK and many of them are also capable with foreign languages. I think you can find appalling grammar in many native speakers of any country.

Go visit The Liverpool Way for an incredible mix. Many of the English posters speak one other foreign language and they are constantly correcting grammar (I kid you not). They also ban text speak. This is an English Football supporters forum as well... with many Spanish, Indian, American. I remember what happened to one poster who generalised about another race....

What stereotpyes we like to create. What generalisations we like to promote of others

I am sure some of you will now correct my appalling grammar [:D]

[Phatguy]

A LOT of native born English(USA version) speakers are horrid when it comes to the language. When I do work(not often due to medical reasons and the need not to) I deal with children. Four out of five do not wish to  or just can't grasp basic language principles. Basically, here in Buffalo, if you want to hear the correct way to pronounce something, find someone who has English as a second lanuage.Which is sad really.....

[Karri]

Now that I think of it, I probaply write better english than finnish.

[joeblack1862]

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

A LOT of native born English(USA version) speakers are horrid when it comes to the language. When I do work(not often due to medical reasons and the need not to) I deal with children. Four out of five do not wish to  or just can't grasp basic language principles. Basically, here in Buffalo, if you want to hear the correct way to pronounce something, find someone who has English as a second lanuage.Which is sad really.....

Good for you. Now go to there native country and try the same test... You see, when you "know" a language at birth, you get lazy and pick up bad habits before you get to school. You also may have no love of studying the language.

When you have to learn it as a second language, you have no choice but to understand the grammar as that is the way you are taught the language (this is from personal experience, I actually learnt English grammar because of I studied Russian and our tutor insisted we do this to better deal with the Russiian grammar. I love my native language as do many native students of English (whichever brand) and we know our grammar, like [:)]

That is the beauty of most languages, when you enjoy using them they allow you to be more creative with the grammar as well. English is often used incorrectly by some of the best authors intentionally. There is a poem by Keats (La Belle Dame sans merci) if you read for correct form and grammar then you will claim the poet is poor at his own language. If you read it as to the reasons for the form you will understand what an incredible use of the language it is.

That is sometimes the disadvantage of having English as a second language, you maybe forget it is a growing, very flexible language. Read English from the time of Chaucer and you can see this.

Anyway, I don't dispute your experience, I am sure there are many native speakers who mangle a good prose. And long may it continue... [:D]

[joeblack1862]

ORIGINAL: Karri

Now that I think of it, I probaply write better english than finnish.

I rest my case [:D]

[DampSquib]

[quote:
Original: Joe Black
Go visit The Liverpool Way for an incredible mix. ]

Made me remember this....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBYlXfjKru4[:D]
just a bit...

[Vasquez]

If you are from germany and love wargames you have to speak english. Otherwise you are screwed [:D]

[junk2drive]

Joe Black, yes I used a broad brush. What I have noticed is that when I see a poorly done post, too many times the poster lists UK as his/her location. Us 'Mericuns and other colonies colonys coloneez have an excuse.

My other beef is the misuse of there their they're your you're to too two as noted above

Now go to there native country and try the same test...

I make mistakes too and try to edit my posts before I am caught. I also use our as in colour, s for z as in minimise and with Firefox spellcheck this is wrong. I had to use spellcheck.com for appalled in my original post.

I took three years of Castilian Spanish in high school. Never used it and lost it. When I moved to L.A. years later. I found the locals speak a strange version of Spanglish. [:D]

[Nebogipfel]

Same here Vasquez,

must have been years ago, I´ve seen  a game manual written in german language.

I didn´t care about my english language for many years. As I got back to wargaming, I recognized, that it is important for me, to improve my english skills. The use of the english language for example here at matrix, is far better than in any playstation forum I´ve been so long.

So meanwhile I care about words I don´t know and use a translator. Sometimes I think, it would be nice if someone would correct me , if I´m wrong.

[junk2drive]

There is a group of German game modders, DMP, that you might visit. I think they convert English manuals to German.
I use a plugin for Firefox, gtranslate, to translate their forum posts. This is their Operation Barbarossa forum

Design Mod Project • View forum - Operation Barbarossa

For English forums, capitalize the first letter of your sentence, and proper names like English.

[Nebogipfel]

Thanks junk2drive,
I´ll try it.