A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone...

[wodin]

I seem to always agree with Tim whether it be a a review or his thoughts generally on the Wargaming scene.. here is his message to Slitherine and demo's.



http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/the-flare-path-hurls-demo-charges/#more-177311

[Aurelian]

If he was that astute, he would understand why they don't do demos.

But instead, he'd rather complain.

[Boomer78]

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

I do miss demos. I also miss non-DRM gaming, single player focused campaigns, and RPGs that actually put thought into their stories. Demos would be only the 297th thing I've become cynical about in the gaming industry... and certainly, taking specific issue with Matrix seems a little petulant and heavy handed. But coming from the RPS beta males, should we expect anything else?

[Ranger33]

I know Matrix has their reasons, but as a consumer I would appreciate demos for everything. I know that I wouldn't have bought back into the Combat Mission series after the awful CMSF release if they had not put out an updated demo with missions from all the modules. I picked up the modules and everything else in the series since then based on that single demo experience.

[awbergs]

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

I do miss demos. I also miss non-DRM gaming, single player focused campaigns, and RPGs that actually put thought into their stories. Demos would be only the 297th thing I've become cynical about in the gaming industry... and certainly, taking specific issue with Matrix seems a little petulant and heavy handed. But coming from the RPS beta males, should we expect anything else?

Tim Stone primarily writes about sims and wargames at RPS, and since as Matrix/Slitherine (edit: and others, I would assume) insist wargames are a niche market, he approached the issue on those terms by limiting the discussion to some of the other well-known names in niche strategy and wargaming. The question of demos is also a frequent one with Matrix/Slitherine. Tim did interviews with the other developers to get their thoughts, then compared them to public comments from Matrix/Slitherine.

To me it just seems like decent journalism, though of course I can see where you're coming from with your feeling that Matrix/Slitherine is being singled out -- the opinions of the other developers have certainly done that.

I buy games from Matrix/Slitherine and enjoy them, mostly, but I've been careful about what I buy. There are plenty of games though that I won't buy without playing a demo because of the price point. So, there's more money that they could mine from me if demos were available for specific games here.

I'm guessing if it really is a prohibitive cost to produce a demo, Matrix/Slitherine games are just that different in the code somehow. I suppose I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. I work in software and have my own understanding of it, but I don't work for Matrix/Slitherine, so I can't know.

I assume "beta males" is an insult directed at the RPS writers? Or is it the community at large? Maybe just Tim Stone? Was there something specific about the article that prompted that? What do you mean by a "beta male"?

I also didn't really pick up on a petulant tone, but again, opinions differ.

[Alchenar]

I think the main difference (as Tim notes in the article) is that other publishers have gone for other routes in addressing the access problem for games: ie. we don't get demos as often as we used to, but in exchange I get to see a 50% sale after a couple of months and likely a 75% sale not long after that. If I don't want to buy a AAA game at full price then I'll get offered it at a rate later that makes it an acceptable gamble later on.

Tim's point is that if you don't want to go down that route then the only thing really left for you is to provide a demo, and that article is a pretty comprehensive demolition of the arguments against making one.

[Boomer78]

ORIGINAL: awbergs

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

I do miss demos. I also miss non-DRM gaming, single player focused campaigns, and RPGs that actually put thought into their stories. Demos would be only the 297th thing I've become cynical about in the gaming industry... and certainly, taking specific issue with Matrix seems a little petulant and heavy handed. But coming from the RPS beta males, should we expect anything else?

Tim Stone primarily writes about sims and wargames at RPS, and since as Matrix/Slitherine (edit: and others, I would assume) insist wargames are a niche market, he approached the issue on those terms by limiting the discussion to some of the other well-known names in niche strategy and wargaming. The question of demos is also a frequent one with Matrix/Slitherine. Tim did interviews with the other developers to get their thoughts, then compared them to public comments from Matrix/Slitherine.

To me it just seems like decent journalism, though of course I can see where you're coming from with your feeling that Matrix/Slitherine is being singled out -- the opinions of the other developers have certainly done that.

I buy games from Matrix/Slitherine and enjoy them, mostly, but I've been careful about what I buy. There are plenty of games though that I won't buy without playing a demo because of the price point. So, there's more money that they could mine from me if demos were available for specific games here.

I'm guessing if it really is a prohibitive cost to produce a demo, Matrix/Slitherine games are just that different in the code somehow. I suppose I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. I work in software and have my own understanding of it, but I don't work for Matrix/Slitherine, so I can't know.

I assume "beta males" is an insult directed at the RPS writers? Or is it the community at large? Maybe just Tim Stone? Was there something specific about the article that prompted that? What do you mean by a "beta male"?

I also didn't really pick up on a petulant tone, but again, opinions differ.

RPS does material I sometimes agree with, but their contradictions and moral grandstanding is more than I can bare most of the time. The recent pieces they've done on sexism in the gaming industry has really smacked of hypocrisy. Not only do they condone and promote the same kind of 'meathead' boy toy gaming, they also don't have a lot of leverage when it comes to proselytizing about social issues.

They preview, review, and enjoy the hell out of wargames and shooters, then turn around and try to brow beat gamers into thinking they're homicidal misogynists for playing Call of Duty or Mortal Kombat. Their writers are constantly taking politically correct stances on issues... I guess solely for the purpose of being with the PC 'in crowd.' So I suppose boobs and bullets are ok, so long as you're an academic blogger or game reviewer, but if you just enjoy those type of games for the adrenaline rush as a regular ole' gamer, you must be some sort of sexist dinosaur from a bygone age in need of social re-education.

If you want more specifics, I'll grab some links for ya and we can dig deeper into it.

[Missouri_Rebel]

The p.c. crowd are the perpetually offended. So when you hear about those 'offended', on any subject, it's always the same people. Always. Almost to the last, they're not against any kind of 'ism', they just prefer it directed at those not in their fold.

No one guaranteed you, or anyone else including me, a life free of offensiveness.

Sexism in video games? I didn't know rps went that route. That crowd won't be happy until every video game protagonist are skinny jean wearing, purse wielding, metrosexual males and the asexual heroine who comes to his rescue.

[Boomer78]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/19/to-boycott-pax-or-not-to-boycott-pax/

^ That's what really kicked off the controversy a few months ago. RPS has done several articles on racism and sexism in gaming, but when they decided to Jesus Christ themselves, it blew up in their faces.

RPS decided to take their leftist campus crusade and actually boycott PAX because of their much maligned stance on sexism in the gaming industry. It's too much. They've taken issue with one of the fundamental elements to an entire market. Many different people have tried to bring gaming around to women, and it has almost always failed. Girls just don't play games in the numbers that guys do. Game studios know this, so they try and reach their market with what their demographic wants, and what boys want is boobs and guns. They don't really want touchy feely family crisis games like Gone Home. And yet, time after time, these sort of social issues are shoved down their throats, because the soft plushy writers at RPS feel it's important enough to make a stand on.

To me this is just a modern digital version of the SDS. You take an ideology, morph it into a marketable movement, and thrust it deep into the public forum, smashing through convention, reason, and make conflict where no conflict existed before... and not truly for any kind of egalitarian mission, but often... like so many human endeavors, for self interest and political ambition.

And it makes me want to puke.

[Missouri_Rebel]

Lol. Look at the comments. All the fellow travelers are all falling over themselves to be the most tolerant of the ever moving target. The only thing they are intolerant of is anybody that doesn't completely agree with them.

The comments barely get to the third post before Joan er John Funk starts on the oh so trendy 'straight white male' bit. Poor Joan. She's so upset because dad got him a football instead of the bedazzled encrusted purse he wanted.

The perpetually offended. lol.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11 ... interview/

[ComradeP]

I don't really mind the lack of a demo, although I'm still convinced they increase with sales and don't buy the argument that they're difficult to design for wargames with lower levels of complexity, I do see the point that the combination of no demo and maintaining a high price can mean fewer people will buy wargames. To me, that has always been the primary difference between Matrix and other publishers: until the weekly deals were introduced very recently, Matrix didn't lower prices.

I don't mind paying full price for wargames, but I can certainly see the point that people don't feel like paying full price for a wargame from the early 2000's.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
If he was that astute, he would understand why they don't do demos.

But instead, he'd rather complain.

Did you even read the article? He specifically addresses each point of "demos aren't worth it because ...".

And yeah, maybe demos wouldn't be necessary if a consumer wouldn't have to blow upwards of 40 dollars on a game sight unseen (and no amount of LP/manual preview/AAR is going to take the place of actually driving the game), but it's pretty clear that Matrix/Slitherine isn't going down that particular route either.

[Zap]

You tube Demos are what Matrix are using now if I'm not mistaken. I have found out what I need to know about a new release through those

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
If he was that astute, he would understand why they don't do demos.

But instead, he'd rather complain.

Did you even read the article? He specifically addresses each point of "demos aren't worth it because ...".

And yeah, maybe demos wouldn't be necessary if a consumer wouldn't have to blow upwards of 40 dollars on a game sight unseen (and no amount of LP/manual preview/AAR is going to take the place of actually driving the game), but it's pretty clear that Matrix/Slitherine isn't going down that particular route either.

I read enough. When he has walks the walk, (how many games has he published again?), I'll listen. But I'm not going to listen much to someone who, for example, whines about the price of a game that just came out.

If it isn't demos, it's price. Not interested on his opinions on either.

[aaatoysandmore]

To me and for me demos sometimes open the door for enough of the game that I don't need or want the full product. Like for instance the Doom series games demos. Just one lil chapter is enough for me. I think it was Battlefront that put out a demo for Global Conflict Gold and let me play a pretty long time, which was enough time to make me not want to buy the full version. So I think in some cases demos are detrimental to sales of the full game and in other cases (like some of you guys) good for sales. It's one of those catch 22 type things.....damned if you do and damned if you don't.....you can't win for losing. Basically I've got a drawer full of demos I never play. They were fun at the time but not worth the purchase of the whole game.

[Boomer78]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Lol. Look at the comments. All the fellow travelers are all falling over themselves to be the most tolerant of the ever moving target. The only thing they are intolerant of is anybody that doesn't completely agree with them.

The comments barely get to the third post before Joan er John Funk starts on the oh so trendy 'straight white male' bit. Poor Joan. She's so upset because dad got him a football instead of the bedazzled encrusted purse he wanted.

The perpetually offended. lol.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11 ... interview/

Dear lord. I got about halfway through the comments and my head went dizzy and I had to go lie down for while.

And that's why I have to take gaming journalist sites with a huge grain of salt. When they play and review games, I listen. When they decide to sit down on Oprah's couch and belch out a bunch of rhetorical nonsense, usually just for the purpose of having something else to write about... I check out.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I read enough. When he has walks the walk, (how many games has he published again?), I'll listen.

You might be surprised to find out that critiquing something does not, in fact, require that you yourself have done said thing as a prerequisite.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I read enough. When he has walks the walk, (how many games has he published again?), I'll listen.

You might be surprised to find out that critiquing something does not, in fact, require that you yourself have done said thing as a prerequisite.

Mate, he's already stated that he isn't going to engage with what Tim wrote, and for the same reasons he isn't going to engage with what you wrote. It's not worth trying to have an adult conversation with him.

[z1812]

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.

[vonRocko]

I can only speak for myself, but Matrix/slitherine have lost more than a few sales with me because they have no demo to try, but they know best.[&:]