Ship design woes

[Almora]

This is a complete cop out with a few nice buzzwords.

Hard points are bad, lazy design that only frustrates players.

And when someone says things like that, the only thing one can ask is "When does your Game come to Market?" Because it will surely be a Best Seller...

Give it a few years, it'll be great

[Almora]

I don't get this, why are hardpoints considered such an apparently unforgivable design sin? It seems like a similar design principle to having equipment slots in an RPG or a selection of weapons to collect and cycle through in an FPS. I'm not saying just because it is trope it must be good, but I don't see why the oposite has to be true either.

Taking into account the realistic limitations of the average game development project, and whether a design decision is objectively bad, or might just be unpopular because it is different from prior expectations; Starting with the premise that it is a lazy cop out, could I get some elaboration of what is it a cop out from, and what the clearly better concept is?

I've broken it down better in comments above but the basic premise is this:

There are plenty of other limitations to keep things grounded and balanced (ship size, module slot limit, power requirements, fuel range, crew requirements, cost)

The one main problem people have with ship design mechanic itself (not the surrounding UI or saving mechanics or general bugs) is the hardpoints, and mainly just the module category restrictions from that (engine, weapon, defense, sensor)

The reason for this is that is because it limits things unnecessarily, and doesn't even make sense. Why can't I replace a weapon slot with a shield? Why can't I sacrifice an engine for a sensor? Why can't I make these tradeoffs using the systems we already have? Why do we need this arbitrary limitation? If my empire decided their doctrine was defense strength over anything, I should be able to fully emulate that, not only to the extent this mechanic allows. It limits a lot of freedom for no real gain, this system doesn't provide any essential mechanics, it just makes balancing ship hulls super easy (I'd say to the point of it being boring, but that's just me) hence why its called lazy design

I understand that some people want the unlimited ship sizes from DWU, but I agree that its a bad mechanic comparatively. But the one we have now is a bit too far down the other extreme, but I think we're close to a good balance, just a bit of tweaking

[Llamageddon]

I've broken it down better in comments above, but the basic premise is this:

Thanks, that was a good explanation. I found some comments against it to be quite unhelpful in really understanding the reasoning, rather just general complaints that they didn't want any restrictions on building ships that could completely throw off the balance for AI vs Human empires.

There are plenty of other limitations to keep things grounded and balanced (ship size, module slot limit, power requirements, fuel range, crew requirements, cost)

This seems like a reasonable perspective too, I just disagree that hardpoints shouldn't be included in that list. I'm not against giving players as much freedom as is practical; but I do think a lot of people simply see hardpoints as an arbitrary system designed to make balancing the game simpler, when in my opinion, it is a valid game mechanic that has a lot to do with honing and focussing the experience and enjoyment of the game according to intentional principles of design, as well as aiding with balance.

But thanks again for measuredly articulating a robust argument that isn't in favour of that design decision. It's interesting to be able to understand some of the arguments against it a bit better now.

[Emperor0Akim]

Yeah, Hardpoints aren't the problem in general, but that in some instances it's badly implemented on top of it.

What makes the Hardpoint System so clunky to me is,
that there are Designs with so many Hardpoints that I think, no matter how much I progress, I will not be able to fill that Design. ( Starport comes to mind )
On the other Hand there are Designs where I can hardly put the Basic Components into the frame I need for the Design
( Resort Base )
also that after the Hulls are first researched they are static and have to be replaced by a completely new Design instead of improving in small steps.
And I emphasize I don't want all Hulltypes to grow to be identical, like DWU, but at least show me some of those research points I spent.

another thing I wanted to write about anyway, are the Weapons hard points seem to confuse the ships.

I had the first few real battles now and ships with direkt fire weapons move really erratic trying to get their firing ark lined up, some not even get to shoot at all.


finally I have a question. I got Large Civilian Construction through an event, upgraded and now the game tells me, there is no Spaceyard able to build those ships.

[zgrssd]

finally I have a question. I got Large Civilian Construction through an event, upgraded and now the game tells me, there is no Spaceyard able to build those ships.

A couple of questions:
1. Where does it say that?
2. What exactly does it say?
3. Have you restarted the game since you got the tech?
4. Have you done a steam gamefile verfication since you had that issue?

[Emperor0Akim]

finally I have a question. I got Large Civilian Construction through an event, upgraded and now the game tells me, there is no Spaceyard able to build those ships.

A couple of questions:
1. Where does it say that?
2. What exactly does it say?
3. Have you restarted the game since you got the tech?
4. Have you done a steam gamefile verfication since you had that issue?

3. and 4. I did not, but I will have when I check for 1. and 2. later

[SgtBootStrap]

This is a complete cop out with a few nice buzzwords.

Hard points are bad, lazy design that only frustrates players.

And when someone says things like that, the only thing one can ask is "When does your Game come to Market?" Because it will surely be a Best Seller...

Give it a few tears, it'll be great

Just to clarify. Is it "your Tears" you speak of, or the supposed "Tears of others" who find your rhetoric unfounded? And please, in the future, only speak for yourself. The terms you use so loosely, such as "players" and "others" should be "Me" and "I". Thanks.

[Emperor0Akim]

finally I have a question. I got Large Civilian Construction through an event, upgraded and now the game tells me, there is no Spaceyard able to build those ships.

A couple of questions:
1. Where does it say that?
2. What exactly does it say?
3. Have you restarted the game since you got the tech?
4. Have you done a steam gamefile verfication since you had that issue?

3. and 4. I did not, but I will have when I check for 1. and 2. later

Of course now the issue is gone ..

[zgrssd]

A couple of questions:
1. Where does it say that?
2. What exactly does it say?
3. Have you restarted the game since you got the tech?
4. Have you done a steam gamefile verfication since you had that issue?

3. and 4. I did not, but I will have when I check for 1. and 2. later

Of course now the issue is gone ..

As long as it is no longer broken, there is no downside.

[Almora]

And when someone says things like that, the only thing one can ask is "When does your Game come to Market?" Because it will surely be a Best Seller...

Give it a few tears, it'll be great

Just to clarify. Is it "your Tears" you speak of, or the supposed "Tears of others" who find your rhetoric unfounded? And please, in the future, only speak for yourself. The terms you use so loosely, such as "players" and "others" should be "Me" and "I". Thanks.

That was supposed to say "years" sorry, I wrote it on mobile and didn't notice.

I can say confidently though that "players and others" include a large proportion of people. Me and I think the ship designer is mostly good and just needs a few tweaks, others are less receptive. This is also why I try to clarify when something is just a personal opinion vs what I believe would be best for the game. I don't speak for everyone obviously, but my complaints have been echoed by many in some form or fashion, so I feel justified in my usage

[SgtBootStrap]

Give it a few tears, it'll be great

Just to clarify. Is it "your Tears" you speak of, or the supposed "Tears of others" who find your rhetoric unfounded? And please, in the future, only speak for yourself. The terms you use so loosely, such as "players" and "others" should be "Me" and "I". Thanks.

That was supposed to say "years" sorry, I wrote it on mobile and didn't notice.

I can say confidently though that "players and others" include a large proportion of people. Me and I think the ship designer is mostly good and just needs a few tweaks, others are less receptive. This is also why I try to clarify when something is just a personal opinion vs what I believe would be best for the game. I don't speak for everyone obviously, but my complaints have been echoed by many in some form or fashion, so I feel justified in my usage

Then I apologize as well. LOL!

How one letter can make such a difference. Of course you have an opinion. A good thing for sure. Yes tons of Tweaks needed. I am playing and hope to be able to add to its betterment via some "constructive help".

Stating that things are "Lazy design choices"...etc always seem a tad harsh is all.

Then again, I am old and just see no need to poop on the Dev's, when it has to be known they have worked diligently and for a long time on the current product and appear willing and receptive to betterment of the game in general.

Thus let us Carry on, Carrying on.

[Emperor0Akim]

A couple of questions:
1. Where does it say that?
2. What exactly does it say?
3. Have you restarted the game since you got the tech?
4. Have you done a steam gamefile verfication since you had that issue?

Of course now the issue is gone ..

Except now I have the Issue that the Game Crashes every 15 Minutes.
I allready verified the steam files, but that did not help.

Maybe it was because it removed my Government Type and Race Edits

[khanobius]

As this is woes topic I will give mine.
After 80h on DW2 and hundreds hours on DW:U I will vote for new system.
Sure it needs to be balanced as there are some module that are to big or PD vs normal weapon difference is too small in my opinion but more restrictions means more specialized designs and difficult choice.

In DW:U I eventually always have single ship design I it was kind of boring.

If they add some upgrade branches so we could have multiple desings of same class I will event be 110% on "yes".

[Teflon007]

As this is woes topic I will give mine.
After 80h on DW2 and hundreds hours on DW:U I will vote for new system.
Sure it needs to be balanced as there are some module that are to big or PD vs normal weapon difference is too small in my opinion but more restrictions means more specialized designs and difficult choice.

In DW:U I eventually always have single ship design I it was kind of boring.

If they add some upgrade branches so we could have multiple desings of same class I will event be 110% on "yes".

I am the same way with DWU, because of that freedom and my style of play I always eventually ended up with ships that had energy-based weapons and heavily shielded. This new system, if its implemented the way I think it is, will force me to use different loadouts for the different races due to the different hardpoint configurations.

[Miravlix]

Yeah, Hardpoints aren't the problem in general, but that in some instances it's badly implemented on top of it.

That is because you're holding it wrong.

1 station filled with seeker missiles is better than one station with one single super weapon. We are basically doing it wrong by upgrading to the highest hitting weapons instead of adding quantity.

The goal is to fill all the slots THEN upgrade to bigger guns.

The DW1 designer used to have upgrade or edit upgrade, with DW2 only having upgrade this is becoming a bit of a problem, because upgrade just put on the highest "type" weapon and it does it in the wrong slots. Making it rather painful maintaining optimal manual designs. (Lets not forget that Crew upgrades to Star Marines even while SM doesn't give crew).

[zgrssd]

Yeah, Hardpoints aren't the problem in general, but that in some instances it's badly implemented on top of it.

That is because you're holding it wrong.

1 station filled with seeker missiles is better than one station with one single super weapon. We are basically doing it wrong by upgrading to the highest hitting weapons instead of adding quantity.

The goal is to fill all the slots THEN upgrade to bigger guns.

The DW1 designer used to have upgrade or edit upgrade, with DW2 only having upgrade this is becoming a bit of a problem, because upgrade just put on the highest "type" weapon and it does it in the wrong slots. Making it rather painful maintaining optimal manual designs. (Lets not forget that Crew upgrades to Star Marines even while SM doesn't give crew).

If not yet build, you can always edit the ship

If already build:
- Unmark the Model as Active
- Copy as New
- edit

[Miravlix]

If not yet build, you can always edit the ship

If already build:
- Unmark the Model as Active
- Copy as New
- edit

Uhm, that is what I just said, in DW1 we had Auto Upgrade and Manual Upgrade, both auto created a new design and mark the old one obsolete. In DW2 if you haven't noticed we lost the manual upgrade. Leading to having to do the click click click click click click click stuff to get the same effect. It's not a good thing<tm> to make something take more clicks to do.

Not sure the auto upgrade can be fixed due to the complexity of the new hardpoints. Unless the firing arcs is just on the model to fool us users and doesn't actually work in game. Though most of the other auto upgrade quirks should be fixable at some point. They need to create better groups so Crew modules doesn't upgrade to Star Marines or Missiles to short range blasters.

[Emperor0Akim]

Uhm, that is what I just said, in DW1 we had Auto Upgrade and Manual Upgrade, both auto created a new design and mark the old one obsolete. In DW2 if you haven't noticed we lost the manual upgrade. Leading to having to do the click click click click click click click stuff to get the same effect. It's not a good thing<tm> to make something take more clicks to do.

Not sure the auto upgrade can be fixed due to the complexity of the new hardpoints. Unless the firing arcs is just on the model to fool us users and doesn't actually work in game. Though most of the other auto upgrade quirks should be fixable at some point. They need to create better groups so Crew modules doesn't upgrade to Star Marines or Missiles to short range blasters.

Yes the firing arks are in the game, just watch a ship with direct fire weapons doing their little dance, trying to line up a shot.

And thank you for explaining what badly implemnted meant

I stopped using auto-upgrade and the option to create pre-equipped designs because the components are all over the place and I need a few minutes to check if everything I want is in there, sorting the components by type
and then retrofitting everything the way I want it.


In the beginning I thought filling all hardpoints with missiles was a good idea as well,
then came pirates with PD and my stations and ships did no damage at all.

So the big energy weapons and big shields is still the way to go.

As for a good solution ... bring back the upgrade ourself button.
Or add a way to "lock" components, so the upgrade option can't touch them.
And of course implement that only components of the same type get replaced ->
Missile by Missile
Laser by Laser
Transport by Transport

[zgrssd]

Uhm, that is what I just said, in DW1 we had Auto Upgrade and Manual Upgrade, both auto created a new design and mark the old one obsolete. In DW2 if you haven't noticed we lost the manual upgrade. Leading to having to do the click click click click click click click stuff to get the same effect. It's not a good thing<tm> to make something take more clicks to do.

Not sure the auto upgrade can be fixed due to the complexity of the new hardpoints. Unless the firing arcs is just on the model to fool us users and doesn't actually work in game. Though most of the other auto upgrade quirks should be fixable at some point. They need to create better groups so Crew modules doesn't upgrade to Star Marines or Missiles to short range blasters.

Yes the firing arks are in the game, just watch a ship with direct fire weapons doing their little dance, trying to line up a shot.

And thank you for explaining what badly implemnted meant

I stopped using auto-upgrade and the option to create pre-equipped designs because the components are all over the place and I need a few minutes to check if everything I want is in there, sorting the components by type
and then retrofitting everything the way I want it.


In the beginning I thought filling all hardpoints with missiles was a good idea as well,
then came pirates with PD and my stations and ships did no damage at all.

So the big energy weapons and big shields is still the way to go.

As for a good solution ... bring back the upgrade ourself button.
Or add a way to "lock" components, so the upgrade option can't touch them.
And of course implement that only components of the same type get replaced ->
Missile by Missile
Laser by Laser
Transport by Transport

Upgrade just needs much more detailed categories.
Instead of Standoff Weapons, it needs missile Standoff, Torpedo Standoff, etc.
Maybe even split by size and with extra lockouts against significant size changes.

If I had some way to add categories to the game, I could have done this via modding I think.

[Emperor0Akim]

Upgrade just needs much more detailed categories.
Instead of Standoff Weapons, it needs missile Standoff, Torpedo Standoff, etc.
Maybe even split by size and with extra lockouts against significant size changes.

If I had some way to add categories to the game, I could have done this via modding I think.

Exactly, but let's not go down the Bethasda road