[SUGGESTIONS] Improvements to Army Templates

[100thMonkey]

[Edited title and text for clarity]

Here are a some suggestions that I believe would make colony troops management less tedious, and would allow for a semi-automatic management, instead of the "all or nothing" current approach (automated or manual).

Like many things in DW2, army templates is a good idea, but implemented in a less than optimal way, at least from a UX (User eXperience) perspective. Specifying percentage for troops types is useful for invasion fleets, because the quantity for each type of troops is then determined by the troops capacity of the fleet's ships. But unless I'm missing something, these percentages are useless IF you want to control the quantity of each type of troops at colonies, not just the percentage of an unknown quantity that will be recruited by the automation.

What I'm proposing would allow to use automation to manage troops on colonies, while at the same time controlling, through templates, the quantity of each troops types on the planet.

So what I propose is to have 3 types of army templates:

- Invasion fleet template
- Colony garrison template
- Colony recruitment template.

The invasion fleet template would essentially works as army templates work currently: you specify a percentage for each type of troops that you want included in the invasion army carried by the fleet. This type of template would only be assignable to fleets.

The colony garrison and recruitment templates would work differently: they would allow to specify the quantity of troops you want on the colony for each troops type. The difference between these two template types (garrison and recruitment) would be that troops recruited by/for the garrison template would automatically be garrisoned. And the ones recruited by/for the recruitment template would be ungarrisoned, making them available to invasion fleets (or any other fleet able to carry troops).

It would then be possible, for a given colony, to assign one or both types of army template (garrison and/or recruitment). Insuring that you get, at that colony, the quantity of troops that you want for each troops type (and only that quantity); same for the amounts of garrisoned and ungarrisoned troops.

Change one or both templates that is used at the colony, and eventually, the troops on the colony will be adjusted to match the template(s). On that colony, and on all the others using one or both of these templates, without the need to micromanage troops on each colony.

Just like with the current system, you could define as many different templates as you want, for each of the three types. You can have one for colonies near enemy borders, one for major colonies, and so on.

A further improvement to the garrison and recruitment templates could be to make it possible to specify, for each troops type, a desired total defensive strength and total offensive strength for the colony, letting the game calculate the required amount of each troops type required to reach those strengths.

[maggiecow]

+1 for anything that makes troop recruitment easier to automate

[100thMonkey]

+1 for anything that makes troop recruitment easier to automate

Believe me, I share the sentiment!

[arvcran2]

Some interesting ideas already ... here are some more:

Troop Unit Type loadout paradigm:
Am thinking Invasion Army Templates aught to use percentages of the available total invasion fleet troop capacity size and display the calculated loadout based on unit roles' maximum sizes of Invasion Fleet Templates.

Empire wide recruitment UIX:
A Galaxy zoom level Troop recruitment overlay similar to the military ship order overlay would be a very good way to manually recruit troops.
Improve Galactopedia and tutorial documentation to allow the players to better understand the methodology of what the automated recruitment engine does based on automation policies, army templates design, empire budgeting, and empire peace status. Allow Troop Galaxy Overlays for quickly displaying where Troops are with comprehensive filters, numbers, strengths, and total sizes; at least Garrisoned, Ungarrisoned + Ready + at Colony, and locations
Requesting to satisfy Army Templates.

Troop recruitment and facilities paradigm:
Every troop recruitment facility should be able to recruit their troop types concurrently when at the same colony. Allow queuing recruiting troops based on available Army templates with definitive troop loadout numbers at a location or as close to a location similarly to the fleet template build order options. Troop Transports need to have available orders to pick up and drop off specific Troop types and cardinality to be able to more easily facilitate honoring Army Templates.

Invasion Fleet Troop collection paradigm:
Also Troop Transports belonging to Invasion fleets should scatter collect troops to multiple destinations concurrently and return to home base once filled. If non Troop Transport military ships are part of the same invasion fleet they can be missioned to escort the Troup Transports as they perform the collect troops mission for the Invasion fleet.

Military Troops Listing reports:
Show the Garrison, and queued for loading to a transport glyphs as part of the Troop Icon. For the love of DW2, please limit 'Ungarrisoned' filter to solely list Troops at Colonies, Outposts, or any other stationary location where they are available and loadable! Do not include Troops that are in recruitment and not able to be loaded when listing with the Ungarrisoned filter. Or add a "Collectable/Loadable" filter to provide the report and list of available to Transport Troops.

[100thMonkey]

@arvcran2

Since I've posted that suggestion, almost to 2 years ago, I've given some more thoughts to this. And I've come up with what I think is a much better idea to improve troop management.

I need to put my thoughts together before posting the suggestion (it involves many things). But the jist of it is this:

• Instead of managing troops, we would create actual armies, not just bunch of troops that more or less match an army template.

• Even though Armies would be composed of troops, they would be more similar to fleets than to troops. In the sense that, just like fleet, we would be able to create armies, from army templates, and give them orders, just like we do with fleet. And they would do what's necessary to carry those orders... without micromanagement on our part!!!

Yep: manually controlled troops without micromanagement!



As I said, I need to put my thoughts together before posting an actual proposal (it's a big change, involving many things). But I strongly believe it has the potential to make land combat much less tedious and much more fun.

When posted, I'll put a link to it here.

[arvcran2]

@arvcran2

Since I've posted that suggestion, almost to 2 years ago, I've given some more thoughts to this. And I've come up with what I think is a much better idea to improve troop management.

I need to put my thoughts together before posting the suggestion (it involves many things). But the jist of it is this:

• Instead of managing troops, we would create actual armies, not just bunch of troops that more or less match an army template.

• Even though Armies would be composed of troops, they would be more similar to fleets than to troops. In the sense that, just like fleet, we would be able to create armies, from army templates, and give them orders, just like we do with fleet. And they would do what's necessary to carry those orders... without micromanagement on our part!!!

Yep: manually controlled troops without micromanagement!



As I said, I need to put my thoughts together before posting an actual proposal (it's a big change, involving many things). But I strongly believe it has the potential to make land combat much less tedious and much more fun.

When posted, I'll put a link to it here.

I look forward to it. But the game does already have the concept of 'Armies' with the Troop Army Templates. Am seeing the possible use of existing UIX to accomplish some of the things I was proposing. I have itemized the things that may need to be implemented to accomplish what you have envisioned, if, I am on the same page as you are.

[100thMonkey]

I look forward to it. But the game does already have the concept of 'Armies' with the Troop Army Templates.

Exactly! The game has "conceptual" armies. But not "real" armies. In the game, fleets aren't conceptual, they're "real": you can give them order, tell them to attack a fleet, guard a station, etc.

Now try giving an order to one of the "conceptual" armies: you can't. You can order a troop transport fleet to load troops and invade a colony. But the troops in that fleet don't constitute an army to which you can give orders [EDIT: or change its template]. They're just a bunch of troops temporarily grouped together in a fleet.

You may say: so what? What's the difference?

Without getting into too much details for now (again, I need to flesh things out), let me give you an example of how I envision things could be...

Let's say I want to invade a Boskara colony, which has a defense strength of 10,000. Instead of the current process (I won't describe it here: I believe yo know how tedious it can be, especially when troops from many colonies are required), you tell the game that you want to create an army at a specific colony or outpost, using an army template, in which the proportions of each troop type you want in it are specified (identical to the current system). But one huge difference would be that you would also be able to specify the total attack strength you want it to have (let's say 20,000 in this case).

From there, the game would tell you:

• How many troops of each type are needed, how many are available and how many new ones are needed

• How many troop transports are needed to carry such an army, and how many new troop transports are needed if there aren't already enough

• If new troops and/or troop transports are needed, what's the cost to recruit the new troops / build the new transports, and what their respective maintenance cost will be

• An estimation of when everything will be ready

And then it asks you if you accept the "proposal". If you say yes, the game takes care of everything and notifies you when the army is ready (troops trained, all at one location, with all the necessary ships in one (or more?) fleet(s) around the same location.

From there, a new tab in Control Center allows you to select the army and queue an attack order on an enemy target (in this case, invade the targeted Boskara colony).


EDIT:

---

Assuming the army is victorious, you could then:

• Top it up if needed, like you can do for fleets, but in this case to replace lost troops instead of ships

• Change its template (type (invasion, garrison, etc), proportion of each troop type, defensive or offensive strength), or assign it a new one

• Give it new orders, like you could do for a fleet, either directly (on the map) or through Control Center

• Assign another army (a defensive one), created previously, to the newly conquered colony, to defend it, just like you assign fleets to the defense of colonies (or any other assets)

[100thMonkey]

And I forgot: yes, I think we're on the same page as to what we want to see simplified. And yes, some of it could be done with the current system. But I think that "actual" armies could simplify things even further (ie: less tedious)... at the cost of more work for Elliot

[arvcran2]

And I forgot: yes, I think we're on the same page as to what we want to see simplified. And yes, some of it could be done with the current system. But I think that "actual" armies could simplify things even further (ie: less tedious)... at the cost of more work for Elliot

I think I prefer the ideas mentioned in https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 3#p5224643 that post to your concept. It keeps the same paradigm already implemented and solves most of the problems with troops. This might be more palatable for Elliot .

Having said that, there is no reason why there could not be an Army Container similar in concept to a Fleet. You could then attach a general to the Army instead of the fleet. That would solve yet another issue I have reported.

[Edit] The Army Unit would just be a container having a list of Troop Units. It need not reference an Army Template. Instead the Colonies, and Fleets request Troops via the Army Templates. No need to top up Troops but now you would have Army Troops and Unassigned Troops concepts. Colonies and Fleets would then compete for Unassigned Troops.

[Edit 2] After some more thought, the Top Up would be handy for Fleets. But the Automation would need to negotiate recruitment. The locations of Troops to be recruited might be better served but proximity to where the 'Army' is rather than recruiting at a specific location due to the slowness of recruitment. Troops could have priority assignment to a specific army but may be reassigned before recruited or even tagged for loading.

[arvcran2]

More ideas: [Edited]

Troops assigned to an Army would be hauled by Fleeted or non Fleeted Troop Transports, possibly even Freighters (not sure we want that though). These Army assigned Troops would have an in Transit status indicating they are not at the Army Location destination (fleet , or Colony).

There would need to be a UIX for listing armies, and a Scrollable Army Troop listing possibly invoked by selecting an Army Unit.

The idea here is that Armies are implicitly created and maintained by either Colony Defense requests, or Fleet Army template references. So a player manual Top Up could be a thing; but just from either the Colony (defense quota based on Army template Defense Strength?), or the Fleet (based on Fleet Troop Capacities). Am still not sure what to do with Colony Army Templates. Fleet Army Templates are easy since there is a cap on Troop space.

[arvcran2]

Colony Armies implicitly garrison their Troops.

The recruitment of Colony Army Troops are not necessarily done at the Army's colony location.

Recruitment and Army assignment priorities are governed by the empire. As of 1.3.0.4 there are attack and defense troop policies that affect Garrison levels (implicit Armies where the Colony is the Container).

Adding Army Unit containers and UIX would demonstrate the recruitment plans dynamically as newly recruited Troops would be immediately assigned to Army Units which have a location and location status of local or remote.

The fleet or colony army Top Up UIX would, barring policy or budget constraints, queue recruiting the missing Troop units and either Garrisoning them, assigning them to a Fleet's Army with an outbound Load glyph identifying the remote need, or both Garrisoning with an inbound remote glyph).

[100thMonkey]

I think I prefer the ideas mentioned in https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 3#p5224643 that post to your concept. It keeps the same paradigm already implemented and solves most of the problems with troops. This might be more palatable for Elliot .

Perfectly legitimate position. If what we propose in this thread's two first posts was implemented, say in a DLC, I'd be very happy and first in line to buy it!

But if I'm reading you correctly, I think you're starting to see the potential of "actual" Armies, combined with:

• changes to army templates

• some of the fleet's functionalities (for instance: topups)

• some new interface elements and changes to the AI (to enable it to take charge of part of what's now done by us through micromanagement).

Not a simple change. But in my opinion, one of the biggest improvement that could be done to the game, tremendously reducing micromanagement while still allowing control (which full automation doesn't). If implemented in DW2, it would definitely be material for an expansion (not a "simple" DLC). And if it's completely unthinkable, from the Devs' perspective, to implement this in DW2 , even in a distant future expansion, then I would urge them to consider that for DW3 (granted, it would be easier to do with a complete "proposal", not just some bits and pieces ).

Now, regarding some points in your previous three posts:

After some more thought, the Top Up would be handy for Fleets. But the Automation would need to negotiate recruitment. The locations of Troops to be recruited might be better served but proximity to where the 'Army' is rather than recruiting at a specific location due to the slowness of recruitment.

Yes. Those are some of the things that would require some work on the AI / automation. And who knows, there might be some work done on army automation that could benefit fleet automation, and vice-versa...

Troops could have priority assignment to a specific army but may be reassigned before recruited or even tagged for loading.

Agreed. And army templates should allow to specify a priority, that would affect both the troop recruitment and the building of required troop transports. And, it would also be possible to override those priorities at the army level (just like it's possible to override a fleet's template tactics with a fleet tactical settings).

Troops assigned to an Army would be hauled by Fleeted or non Fleeted Troop Transports, possibly even Freighters (not sure we want that though).

Not sure either for the freighters. Maybe only for the templates / armies with the highest priority...

These Army assigned Troops would have an in Transit status indicating they are not at the Army Location destination (fleet , or Colony).

There would need to be a UIX for listing armies, and a Scrollable Army Troop listing possibly invoked by selecting an Army Unit.

Two main interface elements would be required:

• An "Army" tab in Control Center (ideally not only scrollable, but also "filterable" and "sortable" on many things, including of course "Army Template").

• An "Army" template window (similar, but with variations, to the Fleet templates window).

As for the transit status: absolutely! Ideally, both on the map (even if only on a tooltip) and in CC's "new" Army tab.

The idea here is that Armies are implicitly created and maintained by either Colony Defense requests, or Fleet Army template references. So a player manual Top Up could be a thing; but just from either the Colony (defense quota based on Army template Defense Strength?), or the Fleet (based on Fleet Troop Capacities). Am still not sure what to do with Colony Army Templates. Fleet Army Templates are easy since there is a cap on Troop space.

The amount and types of troops in an army template would determine its troop composition (type and number), as long as the player has the credits for it. I don't think there should be any arbitrary cap, just like there isn't right now (as far as I know).

While thinking about this, another idea came to my mind, that seem interesting to me, at least at first glance: a sort of banking system!

Players would be able to get credit (credits) to buy stuff they can't afford right now. The loans would have to be repaid within a certain time, with interests. Otherwise there would be consequences for the players (ships and or facilities seized by the bank, maybe even colonies?). Before granting a loan, the bank would evaluate the player's current and future situation (projected revenues) and decide whether or not to loan, at what interest rate, etc.

Not sure if it's a good idea (it just popped in my mind), but I find it intriguing...

Colony Armies implicitly garrison their Troops.

The recruitment of Colony Army Troops are not necessarily done at the Army's colony location.

Yes.

Recruitment and Army assignment priorities are governed by the empire. As of 1.3.0.4 there are attack and defense troop policies that affect Garrison levels (implicit Armies where the Colony is the Container).

No matter how many armies and army templates you would have, they would still be either offensive or defensive. So to avoid ambiguities, I'd like to see a field in the new "Army Templates" window, that would allow to specify whether a fleet is offensive or defensive in nature. That way, the work already done on the automation policies would still apply.

Having said that, I'd want to have the possibility to override those policies, both at the template level and at the army level.

Adding Army Unit containers and UIX would demonstrate the recruitment plans dynamically as newly recruited Troops would be immediately assigned to Army Units which have a location and location status of local or remote.

Absolutely. Maybe with an info panel for each entry in CC's Armies list, similar to the one shown when you hover above fleets in CC's Fleets list.

The fleet or colony army Top Up UIX would, barring policy or budget constraints, queue recruiting the missing Troop units and either Garrisoning them, assigning them to a Fleet's Army with an outbound Load glyph identifying the remote need, or both Garrisoning with an inbound remote glyph).

Yes. And to help manage the Armies, CC filters for "Armies in colonies" and "Armies in transit" (or "In fleets"?) could be very useful. But in my opinion, the most useful filter would be, by far, on the Army templates.


Hopefully, the post isn't too short...