Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

[zgrssd]

Edit:
Oh FFS.
I EXPLICITLY AND UNAMBIGIOUSLY SAID THAT THIS DOES NOT ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS. STOP TALKING ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS!

Sometimes another game has a really good idea that is worth copying:
In Stellaris, Construction and Scienec ships automatically upgrade themself with any new technology, for free, while in deep space. (Stellairs troop transports do too, but they do not compare to DW1 troop transports).
This allows them to benefit from FTL and Sensor upgrades quickly, without having to backtrack all the way to a spaceport.

In DW1, both kinds of ships have to return to a spaceport (Exploration) or even planet (Construction Ships) for retrofits. This is a lot of time spend in FTL. And especially construction ships have to use the much more limited Planetary Yards for the work.

In DW2 it sounds like the Planet and Spaceport yards are 100% interchangeable, with the planet one simply being slower. The different levels of exploration also indicate there can be a benefit to have the Exploration Ships return home, to get better sensors, to do some additional scanning work.
Still, maybe some automatic self-upgrading would be a usefull ability to avoid having to backtrack entirely? Naturally in DW it would not be free or instant.

Construction Ships
These have the best case for it, as they already have all the manufactoring and construction equipment to make and install components.
They can create stations from raw materials.
Repair ship wrecks involving technology far beyond the players into fully operational ships.
They have all the construction ability of a port and then some (being also mobile). Why should they be unable to upgrade themself?

The only real limitation here is resources: The new component might need resources that you can not get by recycling the old one. There are 3 options to deal with that:
1. Have them go to the nearest base with those resources. Less of a track, but still one.
2. Call a freighter to deliver the missing resources, while flying towards it for a rendevous even in deep space. They already do this in DW1, if they somehow lack resources for a Station (design changed, there was not enough at the stop, etc.)
3. Have them pre-emptively store enough resource to do a full upgrade on the fly. The number of components is more static in DW2, so ship resource costs can not siginifcantly increase on the fly.
4. Their construction equipment can be used to make mining equipment. So why not let them act as a slow form of Miner, so they can go and extract the needed resources themself from stellar objects?
3+4 could even be combined - store in advance, but mine whatever you are missing

Exploration Ships
They have a weaker case here. Unlike Construction Ships, they do not come with all the gear to make entire stations.
They should however still have laboratories and equipment to gather samples from a planet. So they might just be able to extract and process resources for their own upgrades. Or even self repair (even if the Damage Control is not yet generally avalible).

Way more important for them would be the ability to extract their own fuel, however. Construction Ships usually have to return to base for Raw building materials anyway, at wich point they might as well fuel up.
Exploration ships however are about going far away from any friendly station. When they find a Caslon/Hydrogen Gas giant and their fuel is less then full, they migh as well "top up". And if they reach the end of their fuel range, they might return to the nearest (save) planet with the proper resources.

Does anybody else think those changes would be a good idea, or is it just me?

[Latisrof]

I would rather have the ability to control whether or not my ships are retrofitted, as budgeting concerns always play a part in these decisions, and although I understand that it can be painful at first to watch your ships retread old ground, acknowledge you enemies have to do the same. (This is assuming these automatic upgrades would cost money, and you could just toggle it off.)

In my opinion, you are trying to make these ships too efficient, it won't break the game but I don't think it would make it any better either. The fun of the game, at least for me, comes from getting these different classes of ships to work together, if freighters could mine resources, and build stations, there wouldn't be any need for any other class of ship. I like that freighters represent the life blood of your economy, and it's dependent on the decisions you make with your construction ships. A good tip to get around the inefficiency of construction ships, and exploration ships is simply to make more.

[zgrssd]

The fun of the game, at least for me, comes from getting these different classes of ships to work together, if freighters could mine resources, and build stations, there wouldn't be any need for any other class of ship.

That would not be an issue if the proper Ships for those jobs are 10-100 times faster.

You can give a ship a token amount of one thing, without totally invalidating all the proper ships that have it.

[Latisrof]

Not sure I understand what you are saying, but if I had to guess it would be this; If mining ships were faster than freighters then mining ships would be more efficient at mining compared to freighters.

The problem is that this isn't true, because freighters can achieve both the roles of trade and resource management in my hypothetical. Increasing mining ship speed is irrelevant, you could just do the same for the freighter, not to mention mining ships cant sell.

I mean you could just propose a change so that all ships diversify their capabilities, resource management, exploration, military expansion, but in the end there is no specialization in ship type which can have it's own draw backs. So, yeah really I just prefer ship specialization, it doesn't mean your idea is bad though, bacon would probably agree with you on a lot.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Latisrof

Not sure I understand what you are saying, but if I had to guess it would be this; If mining ships were faster than freighters then mining ships would be more efficient at mining compared to freighters.

The problem is that this isn't true, because freighters can achieve both the roles of trade and resource management in my hypothetical. Increasing mining ship speed is irrelevant, you could just do the same for the freighter, not to mention mining ships cant sell.

I mean you could just propose a change so that all ships diversify their capabilities, resource management, exploration, military expansion, but in the end there is no specialization in ship type which can have it's own draw backs. So, yeah really I just prefer ship specialization, it doesn't mean your idea is bad though, bacon would probably agree with you on a lot.

I seriously do not understand what the issue here is:
5 < 10 < 100

If CONSTURCTION ships had a mining score of 5 and MINING SHIPS had a mining score of 100, no way in hell would Construction ships replace mining ships!
So the problem you are trying to invent, is nowhere in anything that I wrote.

[Hazard151]

Exploration ships should definitely not be capable of self upgrading. Construction ships might be capable of self upgrading, working on the presumption they can build and place new components for themselves, but I'd definitely restrict them from being able to replace their reactors and hyperdrives, which would be the components you'd be most interested in upgrading without a shipyard anyway.

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.

Neither construction nor Exploration ships are operating on the "front lines" doing "defense and pirate supression work".

Those are military ships. And not with a SINGLE LETTER did I suggest this for Military Ships!

The points you are arguing against - it is insulting that you even suggest I made anything fo the sort.

[Hazard151]

But explorer and construction ships in dock are occupying a dock that could be used for a military ship for construction, refit or repair. And this ignores the scouting done by exploration ships and space infrastructure construction done by construction ships, including forward defense bases and refueling stations.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

But explorer and construction ships in dock are occupying a dock that could be used for a military ship for construction, refit or repair. And this ignores the scouting done by exploration ships and space infrastructure construction done by construction ships, including forward defense bases and refueling stations.

What giant Exploration fleets did you have in DW1?
In DW1 construction ships only ever blocked the planetary Yard. Wich never directly interfered with Military Ship building. And in DW1, they will use the Shipyards anyway if avalible.
The Private fleet should overshadow them with the ugprade need by an order of Magnitude.

And the military fleet, has about 2 times the components that might need upgrades (ECM, target Sensors, Damage Control, Boarding Pods, Weapons, etc.) so if anyhting, they are the ones blocking the Exploration ships.

[StormingKiwi]

How is this a good idea? In Distant Worlds, you have a meaningful choice between upgrading and replacing your fleet of ships. In Stellaris you don't, and the primary reason is because the developers of that game have different perspectives on what makes an engaging strategy game, filling it up with busy work and micromanagement.

[geforth]

Stellaris and Distant worlds are two completely different games. In stellaris you have an universe without simulation and it is complete static. No traffic, no freighters, no private economy. The whole game is extremely abstracted and it is defined by values which goes up and down and you have everything under control. And in this abstracted universe it is maybe okay to make such things (but which are controversially discussed by the community and it is done because the clausewitz engine is at the end). Distant Worlds simulates a lot, like the transport of goods and the non player controlled private economy. In distant Worlds 2 such things will be a massive immersion break.

But of course, upgrades in the stellar space could be realizable in distant worlds. Maybe the player can build upgrade ships, which transport goods and technology like in tng which they collect in deep space stations. Could be a cool feature. ^^

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Sometimes another game has a really good idea that is worth copying:
In Stellaris, Construction and Scienec ships automatically upgrade themself with any new technology, for free, while in deep space. (Stellairs troop transports do too, but they do not compare to DW1 troop transports).
This allows them to benefit from FTL and Sensor upgrades quickly, without having to backtrack all the way to a spaceport.

In DW1, both kinds of ships have to return to a spaceport (Exploration) or even planet (Construction Ships) for retrofits. This is a lot of time spend in FTL. And especially construction ships have to use the much more limited Planetary Yards for the work.

In DW2 it sounds like the Planet and Spaceport yards are 100% interchangeable, with the planet one simply being slower. The different levels of exploration also indicate there can be a benefit to have the Exploration Ships return home, to get better sensors, to do some additional scanning work.
Still, maybe some automatic self-upgrading would be a usefull ability to avoid having to backtrack entirely? Naturally in DW it would not be free or instant.

This is just a terrible idea that we should NOT copy from a game like Stellaris or other games... the current way it works involve allot more tactical and strategical choices... it also make zero sense that ships are able to just upgrade themselves, even construction ships for many practical reasons.

Designing a ship to be able to upgrade itself would be a complete waste of space and you would have to invest allot of other opportunity of efficiency into that hull... unless you want ships just magically have this ability without equiping them with some large cumbersome module to do it?!?

I just don't see any reason what so ever to introduce something that remove what is the fun and interesting part of DW.

Ships usually have to go back to stations once in a while to re-fuel and so that is a perfect time to upgrade them. If I play a game like Aurora 4x if anyone played that you also need to maintain ships as well, we don't need to do that in DW. I would rather we would need to actually maintain ships as well like in Aurora 4x if I had my wish come true, would make this game even more strategic as ships can't just sit anywhere in space without being maintained over time. Only stations would be able to maintain themselves built into their hull structure.

[SirHoraceHarkness]

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

~snip~

Ships already auto upgrade without the need for a refit in DWU when you research an improvement to an existing tech. So after you get the first tech level unlocked you get the benefit of any new research on it even if the ship is half way across the galaxy. It's only when there is a brand new tech in a certain line that requires a trip to a dry dock.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

~snip~

Ships already auto upgrade without the need for a refit in DWU when you research an improvement to an existing tech. So after you get the first tech level unlocked you get the benefit of any new research on it even if the ship is half way across the galaxy. It's only when there is a brand new tech in a certain line that requires a trip to a dry dock.

Not in regards to all components though... I hope that every component is a new one in DW2 but I assume that some are just straight up upgrades and auto upgrade now as well. I don't like this to be honest as it just feels wrong to me. Every new technology should require a refit to be applied properly.

This is one of the aspect I really like in Aurora 4x... even if this game also have some technology that instantly increase efficiency... but this is mainly for planetary installations not ship components that you also need to research as well individually.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: geforth

Stellaris and Distant worlds are two completely different games. In stellaris you have an universe without simulation and it is complete static. No traffic, no freighters, no private economy. The whole game is extremely abstracted and it is defined by values which goes up and down and you have everything under control. And in this abstracted universe it is maybe okay to make such things (but which are controversially discussed by the community and it is done because the clausewitz engine is at the end). Distant Worlds simulates a lot, like the transport of goods and the non player controlled private economy. In distant Worlds 2 such things will be a massive immersion break.

But of course, upgrades in the stellar space could be realizable in distant worlds. Maybe the player can build upgrade ships, which transport goods and technology like in tng which they collect in deep space stations. Could be a cool feature. ^^

Funny you mention stations. Because in DW1 they could upgrade themself, lightyears from the nearest colony. No material deliveries or construction ship needed.
All you realy did was click a button and pay some credits.
Only planetary stations actually used the planets yards.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Sometimes another game has a really good idea that is worth copying:
In Stellaris, Construction and Scienec ships automatically upgrade themself with any new technology, for free, while in deep space. (Stellairs troop transports do too, but they do not compare to DW1 troop transports).
This allows them to benefit from FTL and Sensor upgrades quickly, without having to backtrack all the way to a spaceport.

In DW1, both kinds of ships have to return to a spaceport (Exploration) or even planet (Construction Ships) for retrofits. This is a lot of time spend in FTL. And especially construction ships have to use the much more limited Planetary Yards for the work.

In DW2 it sounds like the Planet and Spaceport yards are 100% interchangeable, with the planet one simply being slower. The different levels of exploration also indicate there can be a benefit to have the Exploration Ships return home, to get better sensors, to do some additional scanning work.
Still, maybe some automatic self-upgrading would be a usefull ability to avoid having to backtrack entirely? Naturally in DW it would not be free or instant.

This is just a terrible idea that we should NOT copy from a game like Stellaris or other games... the current way it works involve allot more tactical and strategical choices... it also make zero sense that ships are able to just upgrade themselves, even construction ships for many practical reasons.

Designing a ship to be able to upgrade itself would be a complete waste of space and you would have to invest allot of other opportunity of efficiency into that hull... unless you want ships just magically have this ability without equiping them with some large cumbersome module to do it?!?

I just don't see any reason what so ever to introduce something that remove what is the fun and interesting part of DW.

Ships usually have to go back to stations once in a while to re-fuel and so that is a perfect time to upgrade them. If I play a game like Aurora 4x if anyone played that you also need to maintain ships as well, we don't need to do that in DW. I would rather we would need to actually maintain ships as well like in Aurora 4x if I had my wish come true, would make this game even more strategic as ships can't just sit anywhere in space without being maintained over time. Only stations would be able to maintain themselves built into their hull structure.

I already explored the module limits, in the 3/4 of the Post you did not quote.

Stations in DW1 were already capable of self-upgrading, no deliveries or construction ships needed. Still cost money. I am merely asking if that should be expanded to Construction and Exploration ships.

And if they would actually go and be upgraded when refueling, it would be wonderfull. They do not!
Exploration ships can refuel at literally every gas mining station.
But can only upgrade at a space ports. Depending on the range, they might need several refueling stop just to reach a space port.

And even on automatic, the Consturction ship never queues an upgrade as long as I saw it.
Hopefully the part where construciton ships are now private economy and there is no longer planet/station shipyard difference helps.

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

~snip~

Ships already auto upgrade without the need for a refit in DWU when you research an improvement to an existing tech. So after you get the first tech level unlocked you get the benefit of any new research on it even if the ship is half way across the galaxy. It's only when there is a brand new tech in a certain line that requires a trip to a dry dock.

They never do when I play the game.
95% of all Upgrades are new components, that need to be installed.

The only truly passive bonuses I ever saw in DWU:
- are the Racial bonuses (wich includes the species you capture)
- a handfull of ground combat ones. However the bulk is "newly recruited units" only

[SirHoraceHarkness]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

They never do when I play the game.
95% of all Upgrades are new components, that need to be installed.

When you unlock a new component there are typically a few more research projects that impact it. So after you unlock say plasma thunderbolts every new research item completed after it will automatically grant its new bonus without a refit.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

They never do when I play the game.
95% of all Upgrades are new components, that need to be installed.

When you unlock a new component there are typically a few more research projects that impact it. So after you unlock say plasma thunderbolts every new research item completed after it will automatically grant its new bonus without a refit.

Are you talking about a Modded game?

I could find no tech or Component called "Plasma Thruster". Every last Research under Energy & Construction unlocks a component.
Except for the Standalone Construction Size upgrades, but you need to retrofit to get use from those too.

The Vanilla Game avoids passive bonuses like the Plague, having all progress be a new component.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I already explored the module limits, in the 3/4 of the Post you did not quote.

Stations in DW1 were already capable of self-upgrading, no deliveries or construction ships needed. Still cost money. I am merely asking if that should be expanded to Construction and Exploration ships.

And if they would actually go and be upgraded when refueling, it would be wonderfull. They do not!
Exploration ships can refuel at literally every gas mining station.
But can only upgrade at a space ports. Depending on the range, they might need several refueling stop just to reach a space port.

And even on automatic, the Consturction ship never queues an upgrade as long as I saw it.
Hopefully the part where construciton ships are now private economy and there is no longer planet/station shipyard difference helps.

My take is basically that the logic for when and how the upgrade is done are the major issue. I think the logic for when a ship turn back to upgrade is more important.

Ships should only begin an upgrade when it is out of fuel or in case of a construction or mining ship when it heads back to either refuel or deliver/pick up minerals.

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move. Having construction ships needing to move to every station and upgrading them might not be the most efficient in terms of time, better to have most station capable of doing their own upgrade most of the time. The only thing the stations need are the minerals and they can be delivered by freighters.

I think that way it works right now in DW:U is the best way even if the logic sometimes are a bit flawed around when and how they upgrade. So... fix the logic and not the system is my opinion.

Another thing is when you make a new design... sometimes you should not make a new design and upgrade ships every time you research a new component, can be rather inefficient as you have to recall allot of ships too often. This is a strategic choice you are making.
I mainly play game like this on rather slow tech progression so I probably notice these things less though.

[Hyperion1]

In fact if we follow the logic, the bases themselves would be upgraded with the help of constructors.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move.

Construction ships have the construction yard - a size 20 component. It also has storage to store the resource.
Putting those facilities into a Military ship would easily take up 1/2 to 1/4 of the overall ship size allowance.
And that is all asuming Construction Components aren't actually slot limited to one ship and one station design, wich has no weapon slots to arm anyway or no engines to move. Wich would make your problem impossible to produce.

As for standing still: Construction Ships in DW1 already need to stand still to use their Factories or their Construction components. As well as their Solar Collectors. No reason it would work differently here.

So your entire problem seems to be based on falacies and improper understanding of the DW1 rules - wich unless explicitly mentioned, we have to asume still apply.