Captured cities should be immediate supply depots

[RedLancer]

@chuckfourth

Stop making the debate so personal. Other are as entitled to their opinions as you are.

The fundamental problem about feeding horses in work is not about logistics. It is the ability of horses to take on sufficient energy in a day to be able to do any work.

If you want a horse to live off just grass (as they evolved to do) then they need to spend almost all their time grazing. The horse's digestive system is not that sophisticated in turning grass to energy. This means on a grass only diet they have almost no time to do any work so in military operations about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

If you want them to work pulling wagons etc - which also consumes even more energy then you must supplement their diet with grain or oats. They also need readily available forage to ensure sufficient fibre in their diet. Grazing horses move around (acre per horse) which also consumes energy. You want them resting with forage immediately to hand. Forage has been collected - that is why the term has that second meaning of 'looking for food'. That takes time and additional people and sometimes it is easier to get it shipped in than do it yourself. That is why I buy food from the supermarket and not grow my own as I don't have the time to do it all myself.

I agree that simplistically plenty of grass exists in Russia but that doesn't immediately translate into fed horses able to do the significant amounts of work required.

And this is my real point...both the Germans and the Soviets did what they did for good historical reasons because of constraints. Should we give the Germans and Soviets nuclear weapons in 1945 because the US had them?

[chuckfourth]

That the Game gives exactly O supplies to the Germans when it captures a city the size of Kiev is ridiculous. That no one can bring themselves to admit this Tells me loud and clear that German supply remains nerfed.

[carlkay58]

I just captured Kiev in my AAR. The city had 12358 fuel and 120503 stores in it. That is far greater than 0 supplies. I did have to spend 1 AP to create a depot in the city but capturing Soviet supply depots (which are usually in EVERY town after turn 1) does occasionally give you something to capture. If you capture a pre-war depot center such as Kiev, Minsk, Smolensk, etc. there is a good chance of a large amount of stores and fuel being captured.

[RedLancer]

that German supply remains nerfed

...if you really think that over the last six years, whilst producing one of the most complex wargames to depict the Eastern Front in WW2, in as an accurate historic detail as we could, that we deliberately reduced German supply then so be it. I know that is categorically not the case.

The WitE2 logistics model is harder to manage than WitE. If your yardstick is still WitE and you haven't bought the game yet then I recommend you save your money. I cannot see the game being changed based on your broad assertions.

[RangerJoe]

Some grasses are better fodder than others, sedges are bad fodder, then you have the high protein clovers and alfalfas.

Check your history as to the reason why the UK had its units entirely motorized in WWII. It is simply because in WWI that more fodder was shipped to France than any other item. France does grow good grass but not on the roads while the horses are walking on them while pulling heavy loads.

When an animal switches food sources from grass alone to stored fodder of various types that can cause digestive upsets? Think of a high fiber diet suddenly followed by a very low fiber diet. Or vice versa. The first way, you will end up passing a brick. The second way, it will ferment in your guts and then want to come out rather fast. [X(] Check up on the Irish Kerry Gold butter system where they only make butter from the milk for 6 months of the year.

Grasses cut and put into storage without drying are referred to as "silage" which can include the "maize" type of grass.

As far as capturing supplies, have you ever heard of a scorched earth policy?

Did you know that currently, most grocery stores in the United States only have about a three day supply of food? Do you really think that Kiev in 1941 was better than that under communism? Especially since the harvest had not yet been accomplished?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

that German supply remains nerfed

...if you really think that over the last six years, whilst producing one of the most complex wargames to depict the Eastern Front in WW2, in as an accurate historic detail as we could, that we deliberately reduced German supply then so be it. I know that is categorically not the case.

The WitE2 logistics model is harder to manage than WitE. If your yardstick is still WitE and you haven't bought the game yet then I recommend you save your money. I cannot see the game being changed based on your broad assertions.

Maybe those people who don't like the game and constantly complain about it should start writing their own game.

[CaesarCzech]

The thing is there should be perhaps 2 weeks period before soviets are actually able to implement scorched earth and the collaborator population would definitely help with this gettings stuff running. i think in Ukraine as well as Baltics it should be that you get supplies for capture of cities that happen in first 2 weeks. that would be good abstraction of it without instantly turning cities for supply hub. Basically cities before scorched earth on Jul 2 in North and Center would qualify as supply hubs that would be a way to abstract collaborators pointing out stuff like warehouses etc.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

That the Game gives exactly O supplies to the Germans when it captures a city the size of Kiev is ridiculous. That no one can bring themselves to admit this Tells me loud and clear that German supply remains nerfed.

Minsk captured on turn 1. Anything else you want to complain about without ever having opened the game?

[GloriousRuse]

Alright, lets look at this in gameplay terms.

If you capture a functioning depot, you may get some small issuance of supply to represent immediate overruns taken by the unit. Some other portion of trucks and such might be added to the stocks as "field acquired". This happens for any depot. That's modelling "the units coming through here took what they could on the move".

The next logistics phase, a captured city starts producing resources, Hiwis, rail capacity, whatever, and you can have a depot up on it by then as well. That's modelling "we've gained some measure of control of the city and are using it for resources, tied into the larger logistical network of the army."

What you seem to be proposing is that there is some interim city based acquisition between the two. Besides not actually thinking this is any way necessary for an operational level game, it almost certainly doesn't work the way you're thinking. When the panzers spend 45 minutes driving past Brest, even though in game that hex is now German, the panzers aren't stopping to find, collate, and assemble, transload and distribute whatever riches there may be in the middle of a panicky foreign city. The citizens certainly aren't setting up NASCAR pit stops for them. Without any established support in place, that sort of thing is somewhere between a multi-day to multi-week operation.

The infantry who actually stay in the city - should they somehow manage to acquire, assemble, and prepare for transport and distribution supplies to a degree that is operationally significant - don't have a way of getting them to anyone on a scale that matters to the player before the next logistics phase.

So we're left with a very tiny window, where maybe the capturing unit could trade most of it's MP for a local only supply distribution. Not really worth it as a gameplay feature.

Now does this mean that not one ounce of Russian bread has ever been taken? No, of course not. Just that actually establishing control of a city to the point where the potential supplies gained are worth noting beyond "depot captured 2 tons" would be a very niche gameplay option of minimal value only relevant to a handful of rear area infantry formations (unless you think many german players will sacrifice half a panzer divs MP for a few more tons), and is irrelevant after the next logistics phase when the city now contributes to the German war effort and the trucks, trains, depots, etc are all in play and modelled.

[76mm]

I don't even have the game, but this thread delivers all the entertainment I need...[8D]

[paogre]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I don't even have the game, but this thread delivers all the entertainment I need...[8D]

I agree !! [:D]

[Great_Ajax]

I have learned more about horses and foraging than I thought I would ever learn.

[chuckfourth]

Ok Thank you Carlkay58 for an informative post, Most of the information I am trying to find is not in the Manual unfortunately. The rest of you stop banging away about grass. German Report series clearly says FODDER is PLENTIFUL how much more do you want? ie last time I looked fodder isn't grass.

Anyway what consistently happens in these threads and grass is the perfect example, is the Quibbling reachs a crescendo to cover up the fact that most of the points I make or questions I ask are ignored.

So Loki and Red Lancer lets answer this question please, what tonnage of supply does a German infantry division require for the game to considered it to be in full supply?

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I have learned more about horses and foraging than I thought I would ever learn.

If you want another take on horses, there's this lecture by John Suprin. Starts at 47:35 and he goes on for a couple minutes on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z4aQTZC4H4

[carlkay58]

chuckfourth - there is no tried and true answer to your question about the tonnage required. There are too many factors that feed into supply usage during the turn, things such as MPs expended, combat and intensity, fatigue, etc. I would suggest opening up the Supply Details for a combat unit and checking that out to see what is happening.

[Farfarer61]

I am a horrible evil person when playing the Axis. I don't crush pockets until everyone is starved to death as there is no mechanism in the game for all that historically captured infrastructure and people to actually 'make things' for me. They will all regrow to become enemies or partisans or something. Turn Russia into the North African desert.

[chuckfourth]

Thank you for posting this Carlkay58
My apologies, It has been so long since I played the game I forgot about this screen.

So can I ask then Carlkay58 is the supply requirement for this Unit 221 + 46 + 483 ie 750 tons?

and is this the supply requirement for the unit as it just sits there? not moving not fighting which Is actually the supply requirement I am interested in.

thanks in advance.

[Numdydar]

One other point that has not been discussed (and since I grew up on a farm with livestock, including horses I might know a thing or two [:)]) is that when animals forage for themselves, they wander all over the place. So no military unit is going to let their horses out to forage every day as rounding them up will take too long. If you keep them penned in closer, then there is not enough grass for all of them to feed properly.

Military units corralled their horses, or 'rested' them by having them walk on a line for a while on the march. But a unit on the move in June of 1941 is not going to send their horses out to pasture, regardless of how much 'free' forage is in view.

[RedLancer]

The table below is from the WitW Logistics Ready Reckoner I did. The data will be slightly different but the principle is the same. It shows the maximum amount of supply to top up a Unit. The numbers need to be multiplied by 1000 to convert to number of tons required.

[carlkay58]

chuckfourth - I am not sure about your tonnage math. I think those are freight points not tonnage but I am not sure. The division marched and fought a Deliberate Attack last turn.