Historical Accuracy of This Game

[PeteJC]

Game looks great and getting ready to jump in and play. Before I do I was curious on getting input from folks that have played and may be veterans of this series. How historically accurate is the modeling of this game. For example, are logistics historically accurate, can units on average move too far given the week timeframe are certain unit types too powerful or are terrain effects on movement/combat off etc.. I know it has not been out long but any recommendations on how to set default modifiers for either side (new to this game but 45+ year WW2 wargamer).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, opinions or advice.

[AdmiralHalsey]

I don't think anything is capable of 'accurately' representing the Eastern Front. It is simply too complex.

However, I am completely confident in saying the single most accurate representation of that conflict is the product offered for sale to you here. The level of detail and research is breathtaking.

You won't find better till WITE3.

[king171717]

Ya no game does the eastern front as good as WITE 2 does.

[CapAndGown]

I recently posted about how impressed I was with the way at least the initial set up of German and Soviet forces, combined with the more accurate map helped recreate the battle of Dubno-Brody. Watching a historical battle play out like that was quite pleasing.

[56ajax]

OOB is very accurate on T1 and when units enter the game. Manpower totals for each unit seem to be +/- 20 men of the known strength, which is excellent.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

OOB is very accurate on T1 and when units enter the game. Manpower totals for each unit seem to be +/- 20 men of the known strength, which is excellent.

I think you are too optimistic about it.

[EddyBear81]

Honestly this question is surprising.

What other game portrays large scale ww2 military operations better than the WitX series ? It is an open page in the history books ! OK, it's probably not 100% accurate, but the accuracy goes beyond what you can possibly know about ww2 (although you may be more knowledgeable in some details)


The way I see it, is that WitE2 invites you to explore the history of some campaigns you never paid attention to, or units that you never heard of (I did not know what "RAD" unit were before WitE). What's more, you get a better understanding of the constraints that High Command had to deal with, and that better than reading "the Wehrmacht had logistical problems" in many history books.


I can tell you without flaw the disposition of all Axis armies from north to south almost each month of the 4-year period. I did not know it before WitE. It's no hitorical discovery, but at least it's a game that taught me a lot about this time period.

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: PeteJC

Game looks great and getting ready to jump in and play. Before I do I was curious on getting input from folks that have played and may be veterans of this series. How historically accurate is the modeling of this game. For example, are logistics historically accurate, can units on average move too far given the week timeframe are certain unit types too powerful or are terrain effects on movement/combat off etc.. I know it has not been out long but any recommendations on how to set default modifiers for either side (new to this game but 45+ year WW2 wargamer).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, opinions or advice.

I also love this game very much for its correspondence to the story in many details, but I think that it is still far from perfect! My main complaints about the railway repair system, it looks very implausible and I expressed this during the beta test. In addition, I have questions for production. I believe that the unlimited production of machine guns and anti-tank rifles in the game leads to a significant increase in their number in comparison with the real history of the war, and this affects the results. In addition, I believe that the stroke length of a week is too long, there is no way to take measures against deep penetrations of motorized troops. In reality, measures to block the breakthrough began immediately, so a 24 hour stroke would be optimal. But I understand that then the length of the game would be too long and this is a reasonable compromise!

[ast95]

I think WITE2 is close to perfect, and maybe (I hope!) will become perfect with patches. For IGOYOUGOHEX type game. Just wonder, why "World at War: Stalingrad" (1995!) type games doesn't exist anymore. With both sides planning then executing orders. It is much closer to reality and have less abstractions just by design.

[Bamilus]

You'll get people who say its terrible and the worst game ever because some things are abstracted or some unit is 1 hex shifted from where it was historically, but it's the most accurate you're going to get. None of the naysayers can point to a game (board or PC) that's more accurate on this front. I'm not saying the game is perfect, but many of the critics need to study wargame design (there's many good books and classes on it) and understand why abstraction is a thing.

[sfbaytf]

I don't know of any other game that covers the Eastern Front like this. I would say the same for War in the West and War in the Pacific.

As for "accurately" representing the Eastern Front there are so many aspects to the conflict not modeled. The political and military interference by Hitler and Stalin isn't modeled and that had enormous impact on the conflict.

Be that as it may, I don't know of any other computer game that models the theater as well.

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

You'll get people who say its terrible and the worst game ever because some things are abstracted or some unit is 1 hex shifted from where it was historically, but it's the most accurate you're going to get. None of the naysayers can point to a game (board or PC) that's more accurate on this front. I'm not saying the game is perfect, but many of the critics need to study wargame design (there's many good books and classes on it) and understand why abstraction is a thing.

Such claims arise precisely as a result of the fact that this game is so treated! Therefore, when you see something here that in fact was not, you ask to fix it. But the developers of course know better what and how can be done in the game. On the other hand, they then take into account many comments! For example, it was at my suggestion that stationary coastal defense batteries appeared in the game shortly before the release in Odessa, Sevastopol and Leningrad!

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: PeteJC

Game looks great and getting ready to jump in and play. Before I do I was curious on getting input from folks that have played and may be veterans of this series. How historically accurate is the modeling of this game. For example, are logistics historically accurate, can units on average move too far given the week timeframe are certain unit types too powerful or are terrain effects on movement/combat off etc.. I know it has not been out long but any recommendations on how to set default modifiers for either side (new to this game but 45+ year WW2 wargamer).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, opinions or advice.

FOr the subject, I think it is the most accurate game to date, no question. It is NOT completely accurate or realistic, IMO. But we go with what we got. I also think 2by3 is working hard to make it as accurate as possible, but time and resources are always going to be limiting factors. THere is a TON of data thrown at you, and frankly, most of it is not important. You have to dig through a lot of information to find nuggets. The logistics report is a perfect example of data overload. You feel like the NSA sifting through American Citizens phone calls looking for a bad guy! The designers could do a much better job at presenting information to you as the Commander, not massive lists of numbers. And as I have pointed out in a previous post, is NOT how real Commanders get information.

I have already posted my opinion that the logistic model is not accurate in how the flow of supplies is modeled. Individual units would not be getting supplies from the depot directly ALL the time, maybe in certain circumstances they would, but the doctrinal flow would be NSS to Depot through and to the HQs to the unit, with the unit or the Corp/Army pushing or pulling those supplies. There were exceptions, but that would have been the way it was done.

I also think the Soviet Armored divisions at the start of the game are too strong in the Southern sector. Over 80% of their tanks never even made it off base due to lack of spare parts and poor maintenance and the ones that did run, most broke down before ever seeing combat.

TO determine how close the game is historical, you would have to play both sides and try to mirror the moves of units and see how it played out. That would take a LOT of research. I doubt this has ever been done.

The other measure would be casualties rates by both sides. Currently, my gut tells me they are low also, but I am only on my second campaign game, and still learning the system.

I think German Air casualties are much too high for sure.

Another note on casualties, the Russians seem to have about a 50/50 killed and disabled, which seems too high a ratio of killed, but maybe it is the retreating under pressure, programed in there not sure.

Combat Prep Point build-up seems too slow. If it is designed to replicate planning and preparation for future combat operations, it does not take a Staff that long to make a plan, at least competent a staff. So not exactly sure what we are modeling with CPPs, if not Staff Planning. Having the resources for planned attacks is another matter, but I thought that was modeled in the logistics system.

I don't think anyone who likes these kinds of games would say this is a bad game, just the opposite, it is the BEST out there, and has tons of detail. I have been playing it non-stop since it's release.

[Bamilus]

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

You'll get people who say its terrible and the worst game ever because some things are abstracted or some unit is 1 hex shifted from where it was historically, but it's the most accurate you're going to get. None of the naysayers can point to a game (board or PC) that's more accurate on this front. I'm not saying the game is perfect, but many of the critics need to study wargame design (there's many good books and classes on it) and understand why abstraction is a thing.

Such claims arise precisely as a result of the fact that this game is so treated! Therefore, when you see something here that in fact was not, you ask to fix it. But the developers of course know better what and how can be done in the game. On the other hand, they then take into account many comments! For example, it was at my suggestion that stationary coastal defense batteries appeared in the game shortly before the release in Odessa, Sevastopol and Leningrad!

My comments weren't directed at you but rather the Peltons of the world (God rest his forum soul)

[Gandalf]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

<snip>

My comments weren't directed at you but rather the Peltons of the world (God rest his forum soul)

LOL, Is he, by chance, still around?

[Kel]

In fact, after playing and replaying a few turns on each side, I must say that at least during the 1941 summer, the flow of the frontlines has a much more balanced quality than in WITE 1. Dashes are possible, but armies that are supplied on gas fumes quickly lose momentum. I like very much the welcome feeling of gravity and "real warfare" inertia : teleportation is not an option.
Integrating precisely (of course still with some rough edges) the logistical factor is, in my view, the first very good surprise of the game. As far as I know (and I have been playing wargames for 35 years now), I have never seen it so well done at this scale. The pleasure of this game comes in part of the very welcome shock between to timescales - the operational one and the strategical one.
It reminds me a bit of the old Enemy at the Gates. Of course, more play is required to give a more thorough evaluation. And see if this kind of balance & playability can be maintained during the whole campaign.
So far, so good.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

OOB is very accurate on T1 and when units enter the game. Manpower totals for each unit seem to be +/- 20 men of the known strength, which is excellent.

I think you are too optimistic about it.

Firstly, Hi Dreamslayer, good to see you online.

Secondly, yep you are probably right, I get over excited, so I should qualify my statement - every divisional size Soviet army unit is at its historical strength as at 22/6/41, according to Operation Barbarossa by Nigel Askey. I should know because I checked and it did my brain in. I cant speak for the Axis units.

[Bamilus]

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

<snip>

My comments weren't directed at you but rather the Peltons of the world (God rest his forum soul)

LOL, Is he, by chance, still around?

No, he got banned years ago.

[Rosseau]

I'm sure for good reason, but Mr. P did know his way around the first game and some great AARs, and his experience on WitE2 would be interesting, if not caustic!

Because I mod the heck out of the game, I have not yet succumbed to the temptation of WitE2. Point is that the significant changes to OOB, logistics, etc., would likely not impact a "what-if" gamer like me.

Secondly, God forbid, but after 20 years I am burnt out on the Eastern Front. War in Russia, Second Front, WitE, Strategic Command Blitzkrieg, to name a few. All excellent, but simply fatigued looking at that June 22, 1941 layout.

But I am (finally) deeper into WitW, and with the graphics mods along, it is simply a lovely game.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf
As for "accurately" representing the Eastern Front there are so many aspects to the conflict not modeled. The political and military interference by Hitler and Stalin isn't modeled and that had enormous impact on the conflict.

Not to mention the internal politics. This is one thing I rather liked about Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa, it did make an attempt to model the political factor of the war. Despite the obvious abstraction that is necessary - there is no way to model the full complexity of human interaction - it gave me a deeper appreciation of the kind of juggling a commander would have to do to keep everyone going in the same direction, and that some people are going to be obstructionist out of petty spite.

It would be nice to have a game that covered all the aspects at a high level of detail, but the simple truth is that writing the game engine would be a monumental if not impossible task, the complexity would be more than most people can handle, and it would probably end up taking longer to play that the actual war!

There is another side to this. In these games we - the players - want to push all the counters around and essentially control the entire war, but realistically no one person had that kind of power. Maybe modern Command and Control along with GPS and modern recon would allow one commander that level of knowledge and control, but I doubt it.

In WW2 Launching an offensive was setting all the pieces in place, and then hitting the button and hoping everyone does what they are supposed to. The exact location of units would be less than clear, commands could be confused and units would do something stupid (hold when they are supposed to move, attack when they are supposed to hold, etc.), and battles weren't able to predicted by saying "Well, my troops are attacking from 3 directions, and have a CV of 90, so with bonuses I get about a 120 CV, the defenders have about a 60 CV with their foxholes, so I should have a 2 to 1 strength advantage and should win!" Nope! Far, far less clear than that.

So while wanting increased realism, people are conveniently forgetting that our god's eye view and level of control is itself incredibly unrealistic.

It's a game folks, we can ask it to be as historically accurate as we possible in order to recreate the same sort of strategic and tactical decision making that was the situation at the time, but at the end of the day it is at best an abstract approximation. And that is the best we are going to get.

But it sounds like this game is a pretty good abstract approximation of the East Front conflict of 1941 to 1945. [:D]