Soviet Night Bombing on Airfields & Ground Power

[tonyhnz]

HUGE Soviet armadas of planes flying in just a sector

Based on my soviet experiences at the start of the game, you would only be able to do this in one sector so the Luftwaffe would have free rein elsewhere (so there is a tradeoff).

[Joel Billings]

The changes we are making will make night bombing in WitE2 (without the navigation aides in WitW) less accurate, and will increase the op losses for all but very good pilots. Based on my latest test this will in no way be a winning strategy when these changes make it out to the public. There is an update in the pipeline now with other air changes that will likely be released in the next day or two. The night bombing changes will make it in the update after that. Thanks for the discussion, feedback and saves.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The changes we are making will make night bombing in WitE2 (without the navigation aides in WitW) less accurate, and will increase the op losses for all but very good pilots. Based on my latest test this will in no way be a winning strategy when these changes make it out to the public. There is an update in the pipeline now with other air changes that will likely be released in the next day or two. The night bombing changes will make it in the update after that. Thanks for the discussion, feedback and saves.

I guess this post proves that validity of Soviet Night Bombing I would like to ask that when you say "night bombing" that it not only includes "bombers" in the traditional since but also "Tac Bombers" and most of all "Fighter Bombers". I am sure it was meant "all" bombing done at night time but just want to make sure.

Now to find a Soviet guinea pig for a game to show how devastating "Motorization" really is in German hands in 41.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The changes we are making will make night bombing in WitE2 (without the navigation aides in WitW) less accurate, and will increase the op losses for all but very good pilots. Based on my latest test this will in no way be a winning strategy when these changes make it out to the public. There is an update in the pipeline now with other air changes that will likely be released in the next day or two. The night bombing changes will make it in the update after that. Thanks for the discussion, feedback and saves.

Joel, have you tested the new rules with U-2VS's yet? They are already worthless at night bombing, even though it's their specialty. I was hoping they could get accuracy bonuses in the night.

[Joel Billings]

I have not, but if you send me a save I'll take a look at it and discuss. Really what they should be doing mostly is increasing fatigue of the units they're bombing. Hard to believe they did a lot of real damage, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

[Zovs]

I have a solo test game, I’ll provide details tomorrow, but I did something like 50-60 night bombings on German airfields. Some like 9k sorties went in and the Soviets lost like 900 planes and pilots and took out 50-80 frames I think. Will provide details tomorrow.

[jubjub]

I have not, but if you send me a save I'll take a look at it and discuss. Really what they should be doing mostly is increasing fatigue of the units they're bombing. Hard to believe they did a lot of real damage, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I guess I need to clarify that I am referring to Ground attack. I don't expect them to do well bombing airbases. Their range is so bad that the chance of being in position to bomb an airfield is minute anyway.

I'm not disagreeing about their intended role. Mostly, I noticed a huge discrepancy between their performance during the day (IL-2 lite) and night (nearly worthless), especially with regards to the disrupted elements. I am also concerned that if night bombing accuracy goes down across the board, they will become even more worthless in their intended role. I do think they should have some bonus to night bombing accuracy due to their specialization and use of flares, and I also think that they are currently under-performing in their intended role.

Apparently the save is too large to upload, so I'm going to send it to you in an email. Here's some preliminary comparison though. Also, on an unrelated note, it looks like I found my next bug reports.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

420 squad on bombing #3 O.O That is HUGE! Holy smokes that is great!

Question??????

Did U-2's fly in that quantity during the war? Or were they small group planes???


Question #2??????

Were there this size raids(all raids not just U-2's) during the first year of the war by either side? And every week? Week after week?

[panzer51]

Were there this size raids(all raids not just U-2's) during the first year of the war by either side? And every week? Week after week?

biggest Soviet raids were in June 1941, unescorted. No more than 20-30 planes. The air war is borrowed from the WitW I'm sure. But it's not 1944 and neither side had US capabilities.

[Sir.Arnold]

In history, the panzer division has not recover since 1941 winter. In 1942, the tanks of the AGS panzer division were transfer from AGC and AGN. Since then, the AGC and AGN panzer divisions have been lacking tanks.

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Were there this size raids(all raids not just U-2's) during the first year of the war by either side? And every week? Week after week?

biggest Soviet raids were in June 1941, unescorted. No more than 20-30 planes. The air war is borrowed from the WitW I'm sure. But it's not 1944 and neither side had US capabilities.

I have already suggested repeating the limitation on the number of airstrikes on a hex made in WITE1 or limiting the number of aircraft in a mission. As far as I know, such massive air raids were not practiced in the war in the East from either side.

[Zovs]

I am not sure that limiting the number of airstrikes is the solution. Limiting the number of Required Bombers and Escorts per mission will also help. My understanding is that most missions performed by the Luftwaffe was around 30 bombers. I have not read accounts yet of how many aircraft the Soviet missions would contain. But for 1941 and the first week at the very least the Historical Soviets did not have the capability nor coordination to do what an Soviet Player can do during the first week of the war.

For example currently the Soviet player on turn 1 can order at minimum 95 GA Night Airfield bombing missions.

I don't think that historically the Soviets during the first week could have done 95 GA Night airfield bombing missions:



What is worse in my view is some of these 14 GA 'interdiction' missions:



Of course I could be wrong but I have never read any accounts of the Soviets having 100+ air missions in 1941 (I don't even recall that number in 1942, maybe by 1943).

[malyhin1517]

I have a question here, how many sorties do Soviet planes make in the game per week on average? Soviet aviation had a number of problems that did not allow its intensive use!

[Zovs]

I ran two exact tests (40 total AD (GS and GA), using GA Day for interdiction and units and GA Night for Airbases).

Test case one:
Total Sorties: 9,493. Aircraft lost 1,164 / 337 Damaged.

Total 184 Battles
AF Bombing: 165 (Soviet losses: 9 Fighter, 10 Bombers. Axis losses: 7 Fighters, 3 Bombers)
City Bombed: 1 (Soviet flew: 95 Bombers. Soviet losses: 11 Bombers, no Axis losses)
Ground Bombed: 14 (Soviet losses: 1 Fighter, 34 Bombers. Axis losses: 2 Fighters)
Interdict: 65 (Soviet losses: 3 Fighters, 6 Bombers, no Axis losses)




Test case two:
Total Sorties: 6,769. Aircraft lost 1,215 / Damaged 214.

Total 182 Battles
AF Bombing: 87 (Soviet losses: 6 Fighter, 12 Bombers. Axis losses: 3 Fighters, 3 Bombers)
City Bombed: 1 (Soviet flew: 103 Bombers. Soviet losses: 12 Bombers, no Axis losses)
Ground Bombed: 8 (Soviet losses: 6 Fighter, 23 Bombers. Axis losses: 2 Fighters)
Supplies: 22 (Soviet losses: 3 Fighters, 2 Utilities, no Axis losses)
Interdict: 56 (Soviet losses: 3 Fighters, 5 Bombers, no Axis losses)

[malyhin1517]

Some information about the actual use of Soviet long-range bombers during the war. Note that until 1945, long-range bombers were used mostly at night!

The 18th Air Army (18VA) is an operational formation of the Soviet Air Force (aviation of the Red Army) as part of the USSR Armed Forces during the Great Patriotic War.
The 18th Air Army was formed by the State Defense Committee Decree of December 6, 1944 on the basis of the command and control forces of long-range aviation with subordination to the commander of the Air Force. The creation of the army was dictated by the need for a wider use of long-range bombers to assist the ground forces during the unfolding powerful offensive of the Soviet Army along the entire Soviet-German front, increasing the mobility and maneuverability of the air force, improving the organization of control and conditions for interaction of long-range aviation with front-line aviation armies and ground forces.
Designed to deliver massive bombing strikes against the most important, powerful and distant enemy targets
The main striking power of the aviation regiments of the 18th Air Army was Soviet long-range Il-4 bombers and American B-25s.
The army headquarters was located in Moscow, the command post in Brest. The headquarters was stationed in the building of the Military Academy for the command and navigational personnel of the Red Army Air Force on Leningradsky Prospekt (now the Petrovsky Travel Palace).
Commander - Air Chief Marshal A.E. Golovanov
Chief of Staff - Aviation Lieutenant General Perminov N.V.
Member of the Military Council - Colonel General of Aviation Guryanov G.G.
Chief navigator - Major General of Aviation Petukhov I.I.
Participation in operations and battles
Vistula-Oder offensive operation - from January 12, 1945 to February 3, 1945
Insterburg-Königsberg operation - from January 13, 1945 to January 27, 1945
East Prussian operation - from January 13, 1945 to April 25, 1945
Budapest operation - from January 17, 1945 to February 13, 1945
Lower Silesian operation - from 8 February 1945 to 24 February 1945
East Pomeranian Operation - from February 20, 1945 to April 4, 1945
Upper Silesian Operation - from March 15, 1945 to March 31, 1945
Vienna Operation - from March 16, 1945 to April 15, 1945
Konigsberg operation - from April 6, 1945 to April 9, 1945
Berlin operation - from April 16, 1945 to May 8, 1945
At the final stage of the Great Patriotic War, the 18th Air Army, in cooperation with front-line aviation, supported all the main offensive operations that unfolded on the Soviet-German front in 1945.
During the Vistula-Oder East Prussian, Lower Silesian, East Pomeranian, Vienna, Berlin offensive operations, army formations inflicted massive bombing strikes on large centers of resistance, railway junctions, airfields, ports and administrative-industrial centers of Germany.
In the course of the Vistula-Oder offensive operation, the 18th Air Army, in the interests of the troops of the 1st Ukrainian and 1st Belorussian fronts, by actions at night disrupted the enemy's railway transportation and prevented the concentration of its reserves. From 17 to 26 January, she made more than 600 combat sorties.
In the East Prussian offensive operation, the 18th Air Army on April 7, 1945, during the assault on Königsberg, with 514 army bombers, made a daytime raid on the positions of the German troops, thereby providing significant assistance to the attackers in capturing the fortress. The introduction of units of the 18th Air Army into battle in daylight conditions was carried out for the first time. Until April 7, 1945, the army operated primarily at night. Permission for its combat use was obtained from the General Staff from General A.I. Antonov. For direct cover of heavy bombers, 124 fighters and 108 fighters were allocated from frontal aviation for continuous patrols over the city for the entire period of the bombers' passage over Koenigsberg, and 20 minutes before the aircraft of the 18th Air Army approached the city with 118 Il-2 attack aircraft and Pe -2, enemy fighter airfields were attacked. 3743 bombs with a total weight of 550 tons were dropped on Koenigsberg.
During the Berlin offensive operation, units of the 18th Air Army were tasked with launching the offensive in the dark, delivering the first massive strike against the main strongholds of the second defense zone in the direction of the main strike of the 1st Belorussian Front, and then, during the offensive, inflicting a number of powerful air strikes. On April 16, 745 heavy night bombers of the 18th Air Army delivered a powerful massive strike against the main strongholds of the second defensive zone. On the night of April 17, the 18th Air Force continued to bombard enemy targets on the Seelow Heights with its main forces. There were 759 sorties and 931 tons of bombs dropped. Later, during the operation, the 18th Air Army made several massive night strikes,closely linked with the actions of the tank armies of the 1st Belorussian and 1st Ukrainian fronts. Its third blow was struck on the night of April 18 by 214 aircraft against reserves and strongholds northeast and east of Berlin; the fourth strike - on the night of April 21, 529 bombers against troops and targets located in Berlin; the fifth strike - on the night of April 25, against strongholds in Berlin by 111 aircraft and the sixth strike - on the night of April 26, 563 aircraft.
During the Berlin operation, the air armies of the three fronts and the 18th air army made more than 91 thousand combat aircraft sorties, including in the interests of the 1st Belorussian - 39,559 sorties, the 1st Ukrainian Front - 25,490 and the 2nd Belorussian front - 26 335.
In May, the port and city of Swinemunde and the encircled enemy grouping in Breslau were bombed.
In total, from January 1 to May 8, 1945, army pilots performed 19,164 sorties, of which 13,368 at night. About 100 thousand bombs with a total weight of 15 thousand tons were dropped on the enemy's position, more than 10 thousand wounded were evacuated to the rear, 4 thousand tons of cargo were delivered to the troops, about 2 million leaflets were scattered over the enemy's territory.
By the end of World War II, about 300 Heroes of the Soviet Union fought in the army, and six pilots were awarded this title twice: S.I. Kretov, A.I. Molodchiy, V.N. Osipov, V.V. Senko, P.A. Taran, E.P. Fedorov. More than 20 thousand soldiers were awarded orders and medals.

[malyhin1517]

The first combat missions were performed by the crews of the DBA GK on June 22, 1941, they bombarded the accumulation of enemy troops in the areas of Suwalki and Przemysl. On June 23, "long-range bombers", together with the RKKF naval aviation, bombed Danzig, Konigsberg, Warsaw, Krakow, Bucharest. On the night of August 10-11 of the same year, the bombers of the naval aviation of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet and the 81st heavy bomber aviation division of the DBA GK launched an air strike on the capital of the Reich, Berlin.

In the current difficult situation, the initial period of the war, there was a violation of the centralized control of the DBA of the Main Command, heavy losses of aircraft and crews, constant reorganization of formations. The forces of the DBA of the Red Army Civil Code were split into small groups, as a result, 74% of all the long-range aircraft sorties in 1941 were made with the aim of directly supporting the troops on the battlefield, which was not the main purpose of the DBA GC.

In August 1941, the VGK had to abolish the corps control link at the DBA GK, as the losses of forces reached 65% of the original composition in June of the same year, and only seven air divisions remained in the DAF. The state of affairs in the DBA GK, by the beginning of 1942, left much to be desired, therefore, in order to preserve the forces of the DBA GK, centralize their control, ensure their massive use at the Headquarters of the Supreme Command, they made a decision and created Long-Range Aviation (ADD), as a separate branch of the Air Force , By the Decree of the State Defense Committee of the USSR, dated March 5, 1942 [1] in order to fulfill tasks of strategic importance:

bombing the administrative-political and military targets of the enemy's deep rear;
violation of enemy transport communications;
destruction of warehouses in the near rear;
bombardment of the enemy on the front line to support strategic operations.
In addition, the ADD (including the Civil Air Fleet, GVF, which is part of it) was widely used to support the partisan movement both in the occupied territory of the USSR and in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Poland [1], and to carry out special missions, such as delivery of scouts, reconnaissance and reconnaissance and sabotage groups to any point in the deep rear of the enemy (even near Berlin), assistance to the Resistance movement in occupied Europe and many others.

The ADD formations were detached from the Red Army Air Force and were directly subordinate to the Headquarters of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief (SVGK). Eight long-range bomber aviation divisions, several hard-surfaced airfields were transferred to long-range Avivia, a control, manning, logistics and repair system independent of the Red Army Air Force was created.

Throughout its existence, Long-Range Aviation was a reserve of the Supreme High Command (VGK). The commander of the ADD received orders only from the Supreme Commander-in-Chief JV Stalin. Long-range aviation at that time consisted of more than 1,300 TB-3, TB-7 and IL-4 bombers.

A directorate and five long-range bomber corps were created, which were armed at various times with up to 3,000 air ships, of which about 1,800 were combat ones [5]. The basis of the long-range aircraft combat aircraft fleet was made up of IL-4 long-range bombers. Pilots of heavy aviation struck at the cities of Danzig, Königsberg, Krakow, Berlin, Helsinki, Tallinn and others, took an active part in operations in the Baltic states [6].
“The Russian air raids on Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary caused serious damage to numerous centers. Until now, it was generally believed that Russia was too far away and was busy defending its own front to attack the Balkans, and therefore many elements of precaution were missing ... Budapest was especially damaged. According to one neutral diplomat, during the first raid on Budapest, the large railway station of the Hungarian capital was badly damaged and, according to the Hungarian press, the government commits all glass in the city to repair windows. At present, all three states are frantically organizing air defense in the main cities and at factories working for the Nazis, prudently created in these countries, as it were, far from the bombers of the united countries "...
- English newspaper, August 1942.
In September 1944, Long-Range Aviation was transferred to the Red Army Air Force and transformed into the 18th Air Force. The appointment of 18 VA remained the same.

According to military statistics, long-range aviation carried out sorties:

more than 194,000:
more than 6,600 were done in the administrative and industrial centers of the enemy;
on railway junctions and highways of the enemy - more than 65,000;
for enemy troops - more than 73,000;
on airfields - more than 18,000; [7]
on sea bases and ports - more than 6,000.
In addition, on special missions, 7298 flights were carried out behind enemy lines and about 5500 tons of cargo were transported, mainly ammunition and about 12,000 personnel.

[malyhin1517]

By the way, please note that in 1941 Soviet long-range aviation was not used for its intended purpose in large groups, but was mainly used to support troops, so this must be taken into account in the game.

[carlkay58]

The ability to use the Soviet long-range aviation for troop support is in the game - merely reassign the AOGs to other Air Commands and assign them to Ground Support - or assign the Long Range Command to such. But if the Soviet player declines to do so that is also acceptable as part of the "You are in command" idea of the game.

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The ability to use the Soviet long-range aviation for troop support is in the game - merely reassign the AOGs to other Air Commands and assign them to Ground Support - or assign the Long Range Command to such. But if the Soviet player declines to do so that is also acceptable as part of the "You are in command" idea of the game.

I know, although I try not to. We are talking about the massive night bombing in 1941. The Russians did not have such an opportunity. Only a small number of night raids were carried out in 1941 by a small number of aircraft.

[DeletedUser44]

The fact that night bombing missions is having any impact on the game at this stage of the war is concerning.

Butt analyzed photographs of over one hundred separate raids by RAF night-bombers which had taken place in June/July 1941—the same period covered by the Cabinet briefing paper quoted above in which the RAF claimed that “a large proportion”of its bombs were hitting their targets. These photographs covered forty-eight targets and over five hundred individual sorties.

The report was completed and published in August 1941 and its contents were both shocking and devastating. Of bombers which reported that they had successfully bombed, on average, only one in five had actually dropped their bombs within five miles of the target. For targets in the heavily defended Ruhr, this dropped to one in ten. On nights when there was a new moon, this fell to one in fifteen.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instan ... aling.html