Where's the Axis AI Luftwaffe?

[WingedIncubus]

Playing the GC41 campaign as the Soviets and learning how to wage the Air war manually, I am very surprised - and disappointed - to find the skies totally uncontested by the Axis AI.

I am now in the middle of August 1941. I perform thousands of sorties to interdict and batter the Axis panzers, but the Axis AI never fights back in the air, nor do they attempt to bomb my airfields. They should be dominating the skies but instead, on their Air planning turn they merely perform Recon and Ground Support but nothing else. In the last two turns my sole air losses during my air directives have been through Flak or operational losses; not a sigle airplane was lost to an Axis fighter aircraft.

Where's the Luftwaffe? Where are the Messerschmidts' air cover to protect the panzer groups and the frontlines? Does the AI ever perform Air Superiority missions to attack my bombers? I am starting to wonder if it is bugged, or if it is indeed WAD.

Thanks!

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[AlbertN]

Even if you were to play against a player, by how the air war is structured (very poorly), so long a front is mobile the Luftwaffe fails to keep up.

Since the Air Phase is before the ground phase, an 'Air Superiority' mission needs to be done from an airfield already controlled.
If the Bf109 do AS and operate at the edge of their capacity they just crash into OPs losses each turn (and the Soviet may not fly a single mission). So you need AS centered on your airfield - but your panzers advance of n hexes so they get out of air umbrella.

A lot of players house rule out ground attack function - as you can see in some of the 'Looking for Opponent' threads.

So - beyond the limits of the AI, it's just a problem of the game.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Even if you were to play against a player, by how the air war is structured (very poorly), so long a front is mobile the Luftwaffe fails to keep up.

Since the Air Phase is before the ground phase, an 'Air Superiority' mission needs to be done from an airfield already controlled.
If the Bf109 do AS and operate at the edge of their capacity they just crash into OPs losses each turn (and the Soviet may not fly a single mission). So you need AS centered on your airfield - but your panzers advance of n hexes so they get out of air umbrella.

A lot of players house rule out ground attack function - as you can see in some of the 'Looking for Opponent' threads.

So - beyond the limits of the AI, it's just a problem of the game.

Hmmm not sure if that chimes with my experience.

Remember that although your ground phase is after your airphase, it is before your opponent's. So if you can get fighters within range by rebasing during your ground phase (remember to fly in some freight) they can intervene against enemy ground attack/ground support.

I've definitely had success doing this with the auto intercept routines. If you know in your own airphase where you expect your forward troops to be I think you could also set up an A/S mission to fly just in the enemies airphase and not your own and move the airgroup up during your ground phase. But I've not tried this as the auto intercept has worked fine.

My understanding was that people house rule out ground attack more to avoid the unrealistic situation as the campaign progresses where otherwise the Soviets in particular can concentrate the majority of their airforce on a single hex and wear out any defensive air cover. In the early turns when the axis is moving quickly the Red Air Force has just been decimated and provided you get your fighters in place as above you should be able to deal with what is left over.

I've said in the discord before - I actually think that the air war is well done if you know what you are doing but is let down by an unintuitive UI. Plus I think that a large proportion of the player base are much more interested in the ground war than the air stuff and see the latter as a bit of an annoyance (I know I have to work to maintain my 'discipline' and avoid rushing through the air phase to get to the 'fun bit'!)

To return to the O/P - the AI leaves a little to be desired, especially in terms of it playing the Axis in 41. One issue, which I think is what you are seeing, is the AI is very reluctant to move its planes forwards into marginal supply situations. So it will wait a long time for the logistics to catch up before moving stuff forwards. It is one of those areas where you either have to resolve not to take advantage of the AI's frailties or alternatively find a human opponent. The latter will give you a much more challenging and exciting game.

[M60A3TTS]

It's been a long time since I played the Axis AI. My recollection at that time was the AI would put 90% of it's on-map forces on a single airbase often in the south. So to Sammy's point, the AI in this case isn't leaving a little to be desired, it's a lot sadly. But this part of the game the devs have tended to leave alone.

As far as HR-ing out ground attack, the only player I've seen insist on it is Tyrone, but then again I don't hang out on the Kulik server on Discord where maybe more folks talk about that.

[WingedIncubus]

To return to the O/P - the AI leaves a little to be desired, especially in terms of it playing the Axis in 41. One issue, which I think is what you are seeing, is the AI is very reluctant to move its planes forwards into marginal supply situations. So it will wait a long time for the logistics to catch up before moving stuff forwards. It is one of those areas where you either have to resolve not to take advantage of the AI's frailties or alternatively find a human opponent. The latter will give you a much more challenging and exciting game.

Given that I get easily demotivated each and every '41 turn I play as the Soviets, even against a Normal-100 Morale Axis AI, playing against a player in PBEM at this stage and be the punching bag of an opponent that knows what they are doing would not be not an option. Even playing WITE1, I would often get discouraged before reaching the winter, so I don't want to be wasting the time of my human opponent.

I guess I will have to continue with the gimped Air AI in single player - and perhaps exclusively use Auto AI Assist as an equalizer in the future.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

To return to the O/P - the AI leaves a little to be desired, especially in terms of it playing the Axis in 41. One issue, which I think is what you are seeing, is the AI is very reluctant to move its planes forwards into marginal supply situations. So it will wait a long time for the logistics to catch up before moving stuff forwards. It is one of those areas where you either have to resolve not to take advantage of the AI's frailties or alternatively find a human opponent. The latter will give you a much more challenging and exciting game.

Given that I get easily demotivated each and every '41 turn I play as the Soviets, even against a Normal-100 Morale Axis AI, playing against a player in PBEM at this stage and be the punching bag of an opponent that knows what they are doing would not be not an option. Even playing WITE1, I would often get discouraged before reaching the winter, so I don't want to be wasting the time of my human opponent.

I guess I will have to continue with the gimped Air AI in single player - and perhaps exclusively use Auto AI Assist as an equalizer in the future.

Remember that there is the option of playing the smaller scenarios against a human. They are much more manageable both in terms of size, length and in terms of time commitment.

Or try playing as Axis - that gives you the opportunity to kick some butt at the beginning of the campaign!!!

[WingedIncubus]

Remember that there is the option of playing the smaller scenarios against a human. They are much more manageable both in terms of size, length and in terms of time commitment.

Or try playing as Axis - that gives you the opportunity to kick some butt at the beginning of the campaign!!!

The issue is not with the size.

The issue is that nothing the Soviets in 1941 can do will hold. Part of the Barbarossa experience, I know, but taking 2+ hours to set up my defensive lines on good terrain only to see the Axis player blow my counters away, turn in turn out, to be within 100 miles of Moscow by August when in real-life they were there in October is very disheartening. To my inexperienced mind, losing Moscow and Leningrad means game over.

Also, there is very, very few content to help Soviet beginners. And by that I mean the basics of defence; not a T1 to-do list, not a 'read this AAR and git gud': Dearth of explanations on how to build defensive lines vs hedgehogs, positioning, refitting planning, reorganizing the command structure and the Soviet Air Force, how to build holdouts like in Odessa and Sebastopol, etc. Basic WITE2 wargame stuff. I finally found a turn-by-turn multiplayer game as the Soviets by a German player, so I could finally observe what he was doing and how he would build his defence lines. But it's in German, so I do not understand the explanations.

Compare with the Axis, which has loads of contents just on how to perform the perfect Minsk encirclement on Turn 1. Plenty of people who play the Axis who support one another with coaching advice and pats in the back for support. Where is this support for the budding Soviet player?

So i stay with the single-player until I proverbially 'git gud'. Sorry if I am venting off-topic, but that's how I feel it is because I find myself often at loss of what I should be doing and alone when not finding basic explanations geared towards those non-experienced players who get easily discouraged but refuse to play the Axis, like me. I am willing to carry this conversation over in PM so that we stay on-topic.

[Wiedrock]

As far as HR-ing out ground attack, the only player I've seen insist on it is Tyrone, but then again I don't hang out on the Kulik server on Discord where maybe more folks talk about that.

GA UNIT ADs can be balanced for PvP to not be OP by limiting ADs/turn and Missions/Hex to not kill 5k Germans in a single week in a single Hex.

Also, there is very, very few content to help Soviet beginners. And by that I mean the basics of defence; not a T1 to-do list, not a 'read this AAR and git gud': Dearth of explanations on how to build defensive lines vs hedgehogs, positioning, refitting planning, reorganizing the command structure and the Soviet Air Force, how to build holdouts like in Odessa and Sebastopol, etc. Basic WITE2 wargame stuff. I finally found a turn-by-turn multiplayer game as the Soviets by a German player, so I could finally observe what he was doing and how he would build his defence lines. But it's in German, so I do not understand the explanations.

Soviets generally have to react ...or simply reatreat to buy time. If you want to defend it also depends on how much the German side commits to that area. So one can't simply make a Guide telling you to deploy X Divisions to Leningrad and Y to Smolensk in T2 and T3. Further the AP spending is another factor which can be debated (Assault Front? Leader Change? Fortress? Fortified Regions?....)
There are many ways to play the game which all lead either to the same result or the difference being minuscule.
There are Soviets disbanding units, while others see this as ridiculous. There are some retreating at full speed, while others prefer to stand their ground and delay advances.

I agree that Soviet 41 Combat performance is utterly bad, but the end of an Axis turn is just halve a turn, since you in your turn have the chance to push back as well when the proper units are around.

[56ajax]

Also, there is very, very few content to help Soviet beginners. And by that I mean the basics of defence; not a T1 to-do list, not a 'read this AAR and git gud': Dearth of explanations on how to build defensive lines vs hedgehogs, positioning, refitting planning, reorganizing the command structure and the Soviet Air Force, how to build holdouts like in Odessa and Sebastopol, etc


I tend to agree because no matter what you do, against a competent Axis player, expect the front line to be on the Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov axis. Expect to lose leningrad in 1941 and if not, then in 1942. And if the Axis has worked out supply expect offensive operations continuously, even in the 41 Blizzard. Now that the Axis has worked out how to take Odessa and Sebastopol do you really want to lose 10-20 divisions in a vain attempt to hold them??

Some of these are and sound like what to do on T1 but

1. Try to open the pockets and strip out all SUs and HQs as possible. Retake ground on an North/South Axis.
2. Set TOE of isolated units and those that will be soon isolated to 50%
3. Disband as many forts as possible west of the LMR axis.
4. Disband Mot Construction Units to free up trucks.
5. Build forts in front of Leningrad and Moscow. Sit units on them. When the fort level gets to 3 disband.
6. Build extra airfields east of the LMR axis preferably with a depot
7. Search for units with high CV and rail to Leningrad and Moscow
8. Send depeleted units or those badly smashed to refit in the reserve.
9. Strip out of the reserve and bring to the map all units with high TOE and where experience is > than 40, preferably to a location on an airfield where they can sit building up CPP. Takes 4 turns.
10. Check the list for Corps HQs that rename to an Army. Before they rename attach the crp to a HQ with the highest possible political rating and swap in a better commander.
11. Dont build any new units in 1941, but if you must, pick those that cost zero admin points and low in manpower (mortars)
12. If you must go on the offensive ensure odds are >5:1 and preferably closer to 10:1
13. Use low value units to isolate spearheads
14. Resupply newly arrived or low supply units by air.
15. Replacements go to TBs, Reseve TB then the map in that order. Use that to your advantage.
16. Build new depots on large rail yards first.
17. Consider disbanding some of the multitude of support units that the comes with Sov OOB
18. As there is a penalty for using Army HQs until after Nov consider using Airborne HQs as they dont disband in the short term
19. Consider setting a Front to Assualt but it does cost 20 APs
20. Run

Good luck.

[RKhan]

I've played a game with AI air management turned on and so seen first hand what it does. AI Air management is particularly bad and needs work. I'm an AI programmer so I get the complexities, but I still think there are things that could be done without elaborage coding.

-Align ground support to the corresponding fronts.
-Keep air units behind the MLR! (which is a calculation in itself, but should not be too hard)
-Forget superiority missions, except maybe for Axis in 41/42

And for human players, at least for now, never play with AI air assist turned on, almost anything you do will be better!

Lastly, I find there is a lot of good advice for Soviet players on these forums, just reading the AAR of a good Soviet player will teach you a lot - and its great fun besides.

[ncc1701e]

Also, there is very, very few content to help Soviet beginners. And by that I mean the basics of defence; not a T1 to-do list, not a 'read this AAR and git gud': Dearth of explanations on how to build defensive lines vs hedgehogs, positioning, refitting planning, reorganizing the command structure and the Soviet Air Force, how to build holdouts like in Odessa and Sebastopol, etc. Basic WITE2 wargame stuff. I finally found a turn-by-turn multiplayer game as the Soviets by a German player, so I could finally observe what he was doing and how he would build his defence lines. But it's in German, so I do not understand the explanations.

May I suggest this War in the East 2 Advanced Tutorial - Tips and tricks to defend the Motherland from Matteo Bosso?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsRAqyT ... atteoBosso