Historical Accuracy of This Game

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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cdsys
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by cdsys »

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
ORIGINAL: sfbaytf
As for "accurately" representing the Eastern Front there are so many aspects to the conflict not modeled. The political and military interference by Hitler and Stalin isn't modeled and that had enormous impact on the conflict.

Not to mention the internal politics. This is one thing I rather liked about Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa, it did make an attempt to model the political factor of the war. Despite the obvious abstraction that is necessary - there is no way to model the full complexity of human interaction - it gave me a deeper appreciation of the kind of juggling a commander would have to do to keep everyone going in the same direction, and that some people are going to be obstructionist out of petty spite.

It would be nice to have a game that covered all the aspects at a high level of detail, but the simple truth is that writing the game engine would be a monumental if not impossible task, the complexity would be more than most people can handle, and it would probably end up taking longer to play that the actual war!

There is another side to this. In these games we - the players - want to push all the counters around and essentially control the entire war, but realistically no one person had that kind of power. Maybe modern Command and Control along with GPS and modern recon would allow one commander that level of knowledge and control, but I doubt it.

In WW2 Launching an offensive was setting all the pieces in place, and then hitting the button and hoping everyone does what they are supposed to. The exact location of units would be less than clear, commands could be confused and units would do something stupid (hold when they are supposed to move, attack when they are supposed to hold, etc.), and battles weren't able to predicted by saying "Well, my troops are attacking from 3 directions, and have a CV of 90, so with bonuses I get about a 120 CV, the defenders have about a 60 CV with their foxholes, so I should have a 2 to 1 strength advantage and should win!" Nope! Far, far less clear than that.

So while wanting increased realism, people are conveniently forgetting that our god's eye view and level of control is itself incredibly unrealistic.

It's a game folks, we can ask it to be as historically accurate as we possible in order to recreate the same sort of strategic and tactical decision making that was the situation at the time, but at the end of the day it is at best an abstract approximation. And that is the best we are going to get.

But it sounds like this game is a pretty good abstract approximation of the East Front conflict of 1941 to 1945. [:D]

That might be a game suggestion for extra hard game play, remove some of the god view, fog of war option to remove the cv (offensive and defensive) from the UI (so not visible on counters...). You would have to judge by the number of men, the equipment, fatigue... how strong your troops are compared to your target (so you would have to play more with your gut feeling and experience ;-) ). Maybe even remove the cv numbers and the ratio from the battle result screen (just hold, routed...).

Maybe a team play feature will help to simulate internal politics. If you could give team members independent scores for winning battles and make them negotiate with their OKH/STAVKA player for resources, replacements and priorities... Maybe that way they would compete among themselves for the fame/glory, not only the overall war goal ;-) And promoting/demoting team members from core to higher command positions or vice versa could help create political tension within a faction.

But back to the original question. I still have to see another game that has this level of detail. So big thumbs up to the dev and production team.
sfbaytf
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by sfbaytf »

This game is without a doubt the most detailed and accurate depiction of the Eastern Front you can get on a PC as far as I know and as OP stated you have to go with what you got.

I do find it interesting to read some of the tips for playing the game and comparing to what I do know about the Eastern Front. For instance its suggested that when winter comes you pull back German forces to keep them better supplied. A perfectly valid suggestion and smart way to play the game. However in real life would Hitler allowed that? I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is his orders was "not one step back".

Another thing is the Soviet doctrine. Its was oriented towards taking the offensive. In WitW you have to make some attempt at bombing UBoat pens and V-weapon sites or give up VP's. Be interesting if there was an option to force the Soviet player to make some attempts at counterattacks in the opening of the war instead of turtling up...

But hey it is what it is and its all good to me. Its challenging enough as is.

I'm going to take a look back at some of the old SPI board war gaming rules as they often took account of the political factors and see is there is a way to ad-hoc incorporate them into a h2h game.
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neuromancer
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by neuromancer »

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf
I do find it interesting to read some of the tips for playing the game and comparing to what I do know about the Eastern Front. For instance its suggested that when winter comes you pull back German forces to keep them better supplied. A perfectly valid suggestion and smart way to play the game. However in real life would Hitler allowed that? I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is his orders was "not one step back".

Short answer, no. I think the generals would have liked to, but it was simply not an option.
Another thing is the Soviet doctrine. Its was oriented towards taking the offensive. In WitW you have to make some attempt at bombing UBoat pens and V-weapon sites or give up VP's. Be interesting if there was an option to force the Soviet player to make some attempts at counterattacks in the opening of the war instead of turtling up...

This is very true. IIRC (and I could be wrong) the SW mechanized destruction was because of ill conceived orders to go on the offensive when the formation was simply not capable of acting as a cohesive unit at that scale. It did illustrate the need to restructure such units into more manageable sizes, and did stall the 1st Panzer Group for a bit, but it mostly got a lot of soldiers killed or captured, and lost a lot of equipment they could ill afford to lose at that point.

Some games (board games at least, don't recall it in a computer game) do include such requirements for Stalin ordered attacks, but in practice they end up with the Soviet player sacrificing a few of their weakest units in pointless attacks instead of actual offensives that would have satisfied the Big Man himself.

Still for what it is, its looking pretty good.
Dreamslayer
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by Dreamslayer »

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
Firstly, Hi Dreamslayer, good to see you online.

Secondly, yep you are probably right, I get over excited, so I should qualify my statement - every divisional size Soviet army unit is at its historical strength as at 22/6/41, according to Operation Barbarossa by Nigel Askey. I should know because I checked and it did my brain in. I cant speak for the Axis units.
Hey there, 56ajax.
We can argue about certain units, TOE's, command structure etc. But how about the other case that people avoid? I'm talking about the game rule that make a full mess for morale/exp of Soviet units in June 41 scenarios.
How we can talk about "historical accuracy" but let the such random factor to be in the game?
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loki100
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


...
We can argue about certain units, TOE's, command structure etc. But how about the other case that people avoid? I'm talking about the game rule that make a full mess for morale/exp of Soviet units in June 41 scenarios.
How we can talk about "historical accuracy" but let the such random factor to be in the game?

not sure what the concern is - the game needs some mechanism to achieve two goals - reflect the Soviet command chaos in the opening days and limit the scope for perfect German openings with every battle pre-scripted to give exactly the right result.

to me, that rule is a good compromise?
Dreamslayer
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by Dreamslayer »

ORIGINAL: loki100
not sure what the concern is - the game needs some mechanism to achieve two goals - reflect the Soviet command chaos in the opening days and limit the scope for perfect German openings with every battle pre-scripted to give exactly the right result.

to me, that rule is a good compromise?
This "Soviet command chaos" could be simulated by other ways - there are already some options that can be used for it - reduce ammo, fuel, supply for such units, reduce MP etc. There are already tons Soviet generals that has low skills.
For non-prescripted battle results there is game system that uses various checks. And if you so like a random - make same morale/exp thing for Germans too. Its not so funny when you can find that in two different games the same unit can has morale/exp difference 1-24.
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loki100
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: loki100
not sure what the concern is - the game needs some mechanism to achieve two goals - reflect the Soviet command chaos in the opening days and limit the scope for perfect German openings with every battle pre-scripted to give exactly the right result.

to me, that rule is a good compromise?
This "Soviet command chaos" could be simulated by other ways - there are already some options that can be used for it - reduce ammo, fuel, supply for such units, reduce MP etc. There are already tons Soviet generals that has low skills.
For non-prescripted battle results there is game system that uses various checks. And if you so like a random - make same morale/exp thing for Germans too. Its not so funny when you can find that in two different games the same unit can has morale/exp difference 1-24.

actually that is good - I tested 3 openings of the GC and there is the sort of variation that means a German player will probably either have to over-allocate to key combats or accept the occasional hold result
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malyhin1517
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RE: Historical Accuracy of This Game

Post by malyhin1517 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: loki100
not sure what the concern is - the game needs some mechanism to achieve two goals - reflect the Soviet command chaos in the opening days and limit the scope for perfect German openings with every battle pre-scripted to give exactly the right result.

to me, that rule is a good compromise?
This "Soviet command chaos" could be simulated by other ways - there are already some options that can be used for it - reduce ammo, fuel, supply for such units, reduce MP etc. There are already tons Soviet generals that has low skills.
For non-prescripted battle results there is game system that uses various checks. And if you so like a random - make same morale/exp thing for Germans too. Its not so funny when you can find that in two different games the same unit can has morale/exp difference 1-24.

actually that is good - I tested 3 openings of the GC and there is the sort of variation that means a German player will probably either have to over-allocate to key combats or accept the occasional hold result
It is bad that the Russians had experienced divisions of the old formation and had divisions of the new formation. They differed sharply in both experience and weapons. As far as I remember, this in the game is also given to random!
Sorry, i use an online translator :(
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