Zone of Control exerted by unready or tiny units

[HardLuckYetAgain]

WoW, small units giving so many problems to people. I had no idea that these small units were that serious of a threat and game changing

You won't until you play against someone who uses them effectively, then you will have an entire spearhead fail to nip an encirclement due to 700 policemen. Tiny units are a force multiplier for the Soviets who can use them as spotters for their ground support. Not to mention they prevent CPP growth and cause fatigue for the cost of 700-3000 men depending on whether you are using cav or a NKVD policeman.

The idea that an NKVD detachment could hold up any Panzer Division (and make them lose much of their movement points trying to clear the tile) is hilarious.

Would the 700 policemen engage the Panzer Division? Possibly. Would it be like a fly hitting a windshield? Depends on whether they are dug into difficult terrain.

Fixing this is a step in the right direction to make the game more fluid. Near depleted divisions / tiny subunits should not have the same ZOC as a tank corps.

Divisions should exert ZOC and be able to flip tiles based on their strength. If this isn't possible then meme units should simply not be able to exert ZOC.

@ quote "You won't until you play against someone who uses them effectively, then you will have an entire spearhead fail to nip an encirclement due to 700 policemen."

I am sure I have seen their use many times in many different ways, and the way you are referencing too. It is an old trick new again in WITE2. Plus I don't play like 99% of the people I have seen that write AAR's

@ quote Tiny units are a force multiplier for the Soviets who can use them as spotters for their ground support.

True, small units can be spotters and bring in GS all they want, with proper German Air cover that Soviet GS disappears very very very quickly, probably the spotter too. I know Germans can have an excellent Air Cover umbrella to nip this in the butt by turn 2.(as long as they are not lazy to set it up. Don't be like me in one game not setting it up But I would think some may think that using small units to bring in GS a gamey tactic, I don't mind it since it is free Air kills for Germany, but some may think it is gamey. It was considered as such in WITE1.

@ quote Not to mention they prevent CPP growth and cause fatigue for the cost of 700-3000 men depending on whether you are using cav or a NKVD policeman.

I see 700-3,000 men as free road kills for less than 10ish Germans killed/Wounded. To me I will take that all day long. CPP is easily gained if you set up right & attack right. But that is just me. Plus NKVD leave early in the game. Are these NKVD that detrimental to the whole 215 turn campaign?

@ quote Fixing this is a step in the right direction to make the game more fluid. Near depleted divisions / tiny subunits should not have the same ZOC as a tank corps.

Divisions should exert ZOC and be able to flip tiles based on their strength. If this isn't possible then meme units should simply not be able to exert ZOC.

I do wish you luck with this, but I do believe Joel hit on this awhile back but my memory is foggy on it since it has been a long time ago and probably I am totally miss remembering. Personally if so many players are having such a hard time with these units as a detriment to their game maybe it does need a nerf to help them out. I personally don't find them a problem. But like all things I am probably wrong. Good luck with it.

Lastly, I would suggest to those that are having such a horrid time with these units to "House Rule" it out. Something like all NKVD must disband & CAV cannot get next to Germans unless 50% TOE. I am sure a proper house rule could be made for those that are having issues. But that is just me and I have authority over nothing. Again, good luck.

[ToxicThug11]

I just had a NKVD Detachment damage 13 AFVs in a single hasty attack against Vet. Probably needs house ruling. I agree that slapping these subdivision units results in a very good trade (usually) but the issue arises when these units can be set up behind the main front line preventing any encirclements from gaining traction. These units once slapped can be refitted in a single turn and continue to require alot of investment from Panzers to move out of the way.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I just had a NKVD Detachment damage 13 AFVs in a single hasty attack against Vet. Probably needs house ruling. I agree that slapping these subdivision units results in a very good trade (usually) but the issue arises when these units can be set up behind the main front line preventing any encirclements from gaining traction. These units once slapped can be refitted in a single turn and continue to require alot of investment from Panzers to move out of the way.

NKVD leave when?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I just had a NKVD Detachment damage 13 AFVs in a single hasty attack against Vet. Probably needs house ruling. I agree that slapping these subdivision units results in a very good trade (usually) but the issue arises when these units can be set up behind the main front line preventing any encirclements from gaining traction. These units once slapped can be refitted in a single turn and continue to require alot of investment from Panzers to move out of the way.

NKVD leave when?

You have bombers? Was there German Air cover? When do the NKVD leave the game again?

[M60A3TTS]

"You won't until you play against someone who uses them effectively, then you will have an entire spearhead fail to nip an encirclement due to 700 policemen."

That one threw me for a loop.

So he's saying either

a) You need to stop playing noobs

or

b) The devs need to make this change so he and maybe a half dozen others who can stop entire panzer armies with a single regiment can't take advantage of this situation. This request is in itself a noble thing, but hardly worth the time and efforts of the devs.

In a more serious vein, yes it would be another one of these nice,more realistic things to do/have but is just another opportunity to add a layer of complexity to what is already an enormously complex game.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

"You won't until you play against someone who uses them effectively, then you will have an entire spearhead fail to nip an encirclement due to 700 policemen."

That one threw me for a loop.

So he's saying either

a) You need to stop playing noobs

or

b) The devs need to make this change so he and maybe a half dozen others who can stop entire panzer armies with a single regiment can't take advantage of this situation. This request is in itself a noble thing, but hardly worth the time and efforts of the devs.

In a more serious vein, yes it would be another one of these nice,more realistic things to do/have but is just another opportunity to add a layer of complexity to what is already an enormously complex game.

Ummmm, M60. I did not write, "You won't until you play against someone who uses them effectively, then you will have an entire spearhead fail to nip an encirclement due to 700 policemen." Kulik did. I just copied and pasted below what he said. I changed it here on my post.

I agree with you M60. In the grand scheme of things these units are but a nuisance at best at the beginning of the game and easily dealt with.

[M60A3TTS]

Oh I knew he wrote it. I just didn't take the time figuring out which [] caption to keep and which to delete in order to format it correctly.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Oh I knew he wrote it. I just didn't take the time figuring out which [] caption to keep and which to delete in order to format it correctly.

Thank you Sir

[Veterin]

I just had a NKVD Detachment damage 13 AFVs in a single hasty attack against Vet. Probably needs house ruling. I agree that slapping these subdivision units results in a very good trade (usually) but the issue arises when these units can be set up behind the main front line preventing any encirclements from gaining traction. These units once slapped can be refitted in a single turn and continue to require alot of investment from Panzers to move out of the way.

What turn was this sorry? Must have missed it.

In the last turn (turn 6) i went through all the spammy hasty attacks and across the 12 attacks there was only 10 destroyed AFV's and 10 damaged AFVs. Given i got a nice morale/exp boost from these attacks as some good damage on the VVS i don't think it's necessarily a bad trade for Axis players.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I just had a NKVD Detachment damage 13 AFVs in a single hasty attack against Vet. Probably needs house ruling. I agree that slapping these subdivision units results in a very good trade (usually) but the issue arises when these units can be set up behind the main front line preventing any encirclements from gaining traction. These units once slapped can be refitted in a single turn and continue to require alot of investment from Panzers to move out of the way.

What turn was this sorry? Must have missed it.

In the last turn (turn 6) i went through all the spammy hasty attacks and across the 12 attacks there was only 10 destroyed AFV's and 10 damaged AFVs. Given i got a nice morale/exp boost from these attacks as some good damage on the VVS i don't think it's necessarily a bad trade for Axis players.

Exactly! These small Soviet units are nothing but a nuisance, at most, to a German that knows how to handle themselves. Do you have a picture of your Experience gain & Morale gain would you?

Also were there small unit attacks trying to bring in lots of bombers by chance? Did you have the German Airforce ready to counter?

[Veterin]

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I don't have a before and after example but here is a screenshot i took of a unit last turn (turn 5). It's got 10 wins, largely from the small hasty attacks mentioned in this discussion. 92 morale and good exp is a trade i'm happy with. Sure i have some damaged elements but this unit has travelled from Germany near Luga over the last 5 turns as well.

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This is the screenshot of the air war showing only the Soviet air phase (mostly in relation to those 12 hasty attacks). My set-up is far from optimal with my fighters being relatively far from the frontline and poor supply but similar to the ground story, i'm happy with these trades too.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Oh, very nice! Thank you for sharing.

[christenberryd]

I've always found the small unit zoc ridiculous. More so in a game where every rifle is counted for combat value for realism, yet you have all these tiny units adding layered zoc behind a main Frontline equal to a large unit.

Worse, most German small units are stuck as being assigned only to Corps. The soviets, with comparatively terrible command control, have all this precise control over small units! Again, totally inaccurate. I'm thinking another of the soviet antitank battalions vs. German flak.

Hex flipping is another realism problem for me. There are plenty of rear area troops over which you have no control to flip captured territory. Here's an instance where a couple guys on bicycles could figure out if there is enemy activity in an area. In this game, it takes combat formations simply to determine if an enemy combat unit is still in some pocket way behind the front.

[WaffenSS1943]

I dont know about the Soviets, but the Axis need 2k for the ZOC.

[ToxicThug11]

Is it correct that this unit exerts ZOC and reduces my MP by 6?

[Wiedrock]

Is it correct that this unit exerts ZOC and reduces my MP by 6?

Just look at the dude you are fighting against. I am pretty sure he got inside information!

[Jeff_Ahl]

Zone of Control exerted by 1,000 man NKVD detachments is equal to a Soviet Rifle Division consisting of 15,000 men and 200 guns.

This means that if you are using a Panzer Division and run into a NKVD detachment, you must pay a large amount of MPs to move past tiny formations that have no business holding up an entire Panzer Division.

Small units such as NKVD detachments, Airborne Brigades, the Osel Rifle Regiment, and low toe Cavalry "Divisions" currently have a much higher value than they would've historically due to their ZOC. Preventing hex flipping is one thing, halting entire divisions with a meager amount of men is another.

The easy fix is to remove ZOC from these tiny units, but I'd like to propose something which makes a bit more sense:

ZOC based on unit strength.

Three Soviet Rifle Divisions (45,000 men, 600 guns) will naturally exert a stronger zone of control than say, 1,000 NKVD policemen with no artillery.
Conversely, if these divisions are to become unready, they will exert a weaker or no ZOC.

The hex flipping power of an unready Cavalry Division is absurd, I have witnessed unready Cavalry flip miles of land in my game against KB. The idea that these depleted divisions can survive the rout and then proceed to exert ZOC over elite mobile Panzer formations is ridiculous.

TL;DR, NKVD Policemen exerting the same amount of ZOC as elite Panzer Divisions. Unready units able to ZOC. Unit ZOC should be based on elements, rather than binary.

I agree that unready or small units should not be able to ZOC at all, but I do believe ZOC based on strenght is a bit to far to go and gets to messy.