Captured cities should be immediate supply depots

[chuckfourth]

Here it is

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-6.html
Its the handbook of German forces by the USA war department.


"The determination of the over-all requirements necessary to maintain German troops presents a number of difficulties. This is best shown by a review of the German supply expenditures in Russia in 1941. Armored divisions averaged some 30 tons daily when inactive and about 700 tons a day when engaged in heavy fighting; infantry divisions required 80 tons a day when inactive and some 1,100 tons during a day of heavy fighting"

80 tons a day is 560 tons per week WITE 2 appears to use 750 tons per week for a stationary German infantry division. Difference is 190 ton per week.
You can find on the internet other estimates of what a stationary German infantry division uses every one I found was less than 560 tons.

There is about 100 German infantry divisions at the games start. So it looks very much like the supply requirements for German infantry divisions is at least 19,000 tons too much.

Now that seems to be a historical detail that the game has missed? actually 19,000 tons is probably a bit more than a detail it might even qualify as serious supply nerfing.

[RedLancer]

Please post a screenshot from your game of WitE2 that shows 750 tons a week for a stationary German Infantry Division. Has it been in combat?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Chuck I don't think that 750 tons figure you've taken from Carl's screenshot is a weekly expenditure - it is a figure representing an ideal 'stockpile' of supply that will enable the unit to operate at maximum efficiency.

If you are just working off the screenshot Carl has posted I think the weekly expenditure figure for a stationary unit that you are looking for is either the 83 tons the unit is recorded as having consumed or the 258 tons that it is recorded as requiring from the resupply routine.

To be honest I think it going to be pretty difficult for you to make much progress on getting sufficient knowledge to comment on the logistics system without actually owning and playing the game for yourself. There are too many moving parts to the system to be able to draw conclusions from isolated screenshots.

My suggestion would be to wait a bit and see how the game balance pans out for other players. If the German supply system is indeed 'nerfed' then you'll see lots of early Soviet victories and you'll be able to judge for yourself what actions the devs take to address that. If on the other hand the game appears balanced and you'll perhaps more confidence to make a purchase. You'll then be in a better position to delve into the deeper workings of the logistics for yourself and to comment on the stuff that you think doesn't work.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Here it is

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-6.html
Its the handbook of German forces by the USA war department.


"The determination of the over-all requirements necessary to maintain German troops presents a number of difficulties. This is best shown by a review of the German supply expenditures in Russia in 1941. Armored divisions averaged some 30 tons daily when inactive and about 700 tons a day when engaged in heavy fighting; infantry divisions required 80 tons a day when inactive and some 1,100 tons during a day of heavy fighting"

80 tons a day is 560 tons per week WITE 2 appears to use 750 tons per week for a stationary German infantry division. Difference is 190 ton per week.
You can find on the internet other estimates of what a stationary German infantry division uses every one I found was less than 560 tons.

There is about 100 German infantry divisions at the games start. So it looks very much like the supply requirements for German infantry divisions is at least 19,000 tons too much.

Now that seems to be a historical detail that the game has missed? actually 19,000 tons is probably a bit more than a detail it might even qualify as serious supply nerfing.

A full strength infantry division used 22 Tons food and 45 Tons foddder alone. That's without any fuel or maintenance items or all the many other daily supplies.



Since there was a horse food discussion:

German Army

Riding horses got 10kg a day, 5kg oats, 3,5 kg hay, 1.5 kg straw
Draft horses got 14.5kg a day, 6.5 kg oats, 5kg hay, 3kg straw


VERPFLEGUNG

Richtsätze für Verpflegungsstärken (1940):
Infanteriedivision: 17.900 Mann
Panzerdivisvision: 13.300 Mann
Infanteriedivision (mot.): 15.300 Mann

Tagesration Verpflegung für einen Soldaten wiegt etwa 2,2 – 2,5 kg, dabei 750 Gramm Brot.
Gesamtgewicht der Verpflegung für eine Infanteriedivision: täglich etwa 22 Tonnen.

Leistungsfähigkeit der Verwaltungstruppenteile:
Bäckereikompanie: 12.000 Brote zu je 1,5 kg täglich.
Schlächtereizug:
Schlachten und Zerlegen von täglich 15 Rindern oder 120 Schweinen oder 240 Schafen, dazu Herstellung von bis zu 3.000 kg Wurst.

Futterration für ein Pferd täglich etwa
–10 kg für Reitpferde (5 kg Hafer, 3,5 kg Heu, 1,5 kg Futterstroh)
–14,5 kg für schwere Zugpferde (6,5 kg Hafer, 5 kg Heu, 3 kg Futterstroh)

Gesamtgewicht der Futterrationen für alle Pferde einer Infanteriedivision täglich etwa 45 Tonnen.


http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Sol ... gung-R.htm

[carlkay58]

I would like to re-iterate that the Division I chose to screen shot the Supply Situation had moved and fought a Deliberate Attack - I would classify its supply needs/usage as HIGH. It is also the supply requirements for an entire turn or week.

I think we are quickly approaching an argument built on the proof as stated by Mark Twain "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

[chuckfourth]

Hi Sammy5isAlive
Yes we agree 750 is not expenditure, The required column is defined in the manual as "the amount required (need) to reach 100 percent of required supply."

The Amount required to reach 100 percent of required supply is 560 tons not 750 for a standard German infantry division. The 750 varies a bit but not by much. I would appreciate it if someone could justify how the Devs got to 750 instead of 560.

Having experienced how the WITE 1 forum operated, I am not just testing game mechanics here I am also very interested in how I am treated in this forum. We have already established here that German living of the land is completely ignored. Loki ridiculed me for suggesting that the Ukranians and Balts etc were compliant. Anyone who reads knows this is true. That raises serious concerns for me about his integrity.

Another quote from Handbook of German forces

"b. PROCUREMENT. Requisitioning is supplemented by two methods of field procurement: living off the land and the use of captured materiel"

"d. RATIONS IN THE FIELD. Local stores obtained by purchase or confiscation play a greater part in the supply of rations in the field than is the case for any other class of supply. It is part of the German planning principle to live off the land as much as possible and to obtain only the remaining requirements from stocks procured through channels"

carlkay58
Good point but I think "required" supply is determined solely by the number of men horses etc in the division.
If needs/usage is high then it will use and receive more supplies but the "required" figures stay the same in that they will still be tied to the size of the division not its activities.
So that required value should be 560 not 750 for the SAME level of performance of the division.

RedLancer
I do not have WITE2 I do have WITE1 which for the purposes of determining what value required supply should be seems to work the same as WITE 2. I was very unhappy with both WITE1 and its Forum so I am not going to buy WITE 2 unless I can get some straight answers in this forum.

Numdydar if you don't want your horses to wander you hobble them.

[Denniss]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-6.html
Its the handbook of German forces by the USA war department.

please note that this document may use improper unit conversion or metric tonnes were simply translated to tons but not converted.
The 560 tonnes would then be 617 short (US) tons which I believe is used by WitE2

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Chuck I think this is the kind of thread that if you want it to can drag on till the cows (or indeed the foraging horses) come home.

The developers have been quite open in this thread and others that the logistics model in WITE2 is not designed to be a '1:1' simulation. They've been clear that it is an abstraction whereby the aim is to have broadly historical numbers and performance and alongside that a game that is 'historically balanced' over a 4 year war.

My suggestion is that you think about a concept like Combat Value. That is an entirely abstract concept based on 'after the fact' historical analysis and which is imposed on the player. If that doesn't sit right for you then I don't think you will ever be in a position where you are satisfied with WITE2 in general or the logistics system in particular.

To come at it from a different perspective...there are two logical extremities that you can have when designing a historical war-game. At one end of that spectrum is a 100% historically accurate representation of the conflict in question where the player has no agency and the conflict is resolved in exactly the same way as happened in history. At the other end of the spectrum is Chess where you have 'total abstraction' so that a castle is able to move, that castle can be conquered by a rogue bishop and horses can only move in L-shapes; and where the outcome of the game is entirely dependent on the ability of the players and where the 'starting forces' are exactly equal. Unsurprisingly most historical wargames, WITE2 included, fall between those two extremes. The way I see it is that you are asking for two mutually exclusive things - a request that the logistics model be as accurate as possible for the Germans and also an expectation that they should typically exceed their historical performance (if I understand correctly your concern about the Germans being 'nerfed')

One final different way at coming at some of your more fundamental concerns with the game. What is your assessment of the historical 'pars' that a human Axis player, with the benefit of hindsight, should be meeting at the end of 1941 or 1942? Once you have established that 'expected performance' what is your evidence that this is not being met?

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth



Numdydar if you don't want your horses to wander you hobble them.

Correct. But just like being corralled/penned, they will not be able to get the amount of feed they need as there are just too many horses in too little grazing space.

You could have hundreds of acres of fodder/grass and still not be able to use them they way the animals should.

Our livestock grazed most of the day and we still had to supplement their diet in order to keep them healthy. An army on the move does not have that luxury.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

RedLancer
I do not have WITE2 I do have WITE1 which for the purposes of determining what value required supply should be seems to work the same as WITE 2. I was very unhappy with both WITE1 and its Forum so I am not going to buy WITE 2 unless I can get some straight answers in this forum.

Please feel free to ask questions about the game. However as I've played both games I strongly advise that you don't base any ideas you have on WitE2 logistics using WitE experience - they are very different in almost every regard.

Finally in asking your questions please avoid assertions that in some way we have nerfed the Axis. As you can see such unsubstantiated claims (you admit you don't have WitE2) generate heated argument and some may misconstrue your approach as trolling.

[Mehring]

The Nazis invaded the Soviet Union to acquire resources and they ruthlessly exploited whatever they could. The genocidal Hunger Plan and Holocaust expressed the economic needs of the regime and its concern to preserve calories in occupied Europe. They find no expression in game terms when they should affect population in the occupied territories. But these facts have no bearing on the immediate creation of supply depots in captured cities as suggested in this thread. Assuming that armies march only on their stomachs, with no need for modern fuel and munitions, there is nothing in the historical exploitation of captured resources that indicates anything immediate.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Denniss
The WITE2 screenshot shows 750 not 617 tons The reference uses only Metric tonnes and short tons. All the breakdowns are in pounds not Kilograms, so that tells you they are using US short tons otherwise they would be Kilos. THE US war department is probably aware that metric tons and short tones are different because it gives some values in BOTH metric and short tons in the text. The publication is for US readers so will be in short tons and lbs which it is. This is a very long bow to draw Denniss if I am sounding like a troll then you my friend are sounding desperate with this kind of post trying to sow doubt about the numbers.
Sammy5is Alive
My approach is this if we have a fact like for example here that an inactive German infantry division uses 560 tons a week then that fact needs to be used in the game. I wont bother to detail it but your "logic" makes no sense, and your questions are irrelevant. I don't expect the Germans to exceed there historical performance, I am not a German fanboy. WITE 1 was clearly nerfed which is why it had hardly any German players. Those people are here in this Forum still arguing black is white or ignoring my questions, It doesn't look good. A German infantry Division "required" column looks to be 750 tons it should be 560 tons its not rocket science and it looks like an example of crippling the German assault by using bloated German supply requirements or as I like to call it Supply nerfing.
RedLancer.
In WITE1 in the 1941-45 campaign all the German infantry divisions start with a "required" supply requirement of 750 tons in WITE 2 in the same campaign what do all the German infantry divisions have as their "Required" supply requirement when they are inactive and poised, ready to start operation Barbarossa?
It is a straightforward and simple question I would appreciate an answer.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

..
My approach is this if we have a fact like for example here that an inactive German infantry division uses 560 tons a week then that fact needs to be used in the game. I wont bother to detail it but your "logic" makes no sense, and your questions are irrelevant. ..

can you provide a save so we can look at it, or just a screenshot of an inactive division?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

It looks very much to me like the only people who are posting in this forum are pro Russian and anything posted that might disadvantage their team has to be ridiculed out of existence. I guess this is not a surprise because it is the same people that made posting in WITE 1 such a joy for me.

to be honest the standard of debate in this Forum is pathetic.

I wont bother to detail it but your "logic" makes no sense, and your questions are irrelevant

What's that biblical phrase about beams, splinters and eyes?

I've tried to be helpful and constructive but I'm clearly wasting my time. I'll leave you to it.

[RedLancer]

RedLancer.
In WITE1 in the 1941-45 campaign all the German infantry divisions start with a "required" supply requirement of 750 tons in WITE 2 in the same campaign what do all the German infantry divisions have as their "Required" supply requirement when they are inactive and poised, ready to start operation Barbarossa?
It is a straightforward and simple question I would appreciate an answer.

As I wrote earlier basing your ideas on WitE1 does you no good. Continually referring back to WitE1 merely indicates you have little regard to the answers provided to your questions. WitE2 resupply system is completely different to WitE in almost every respect. A quick check between WitE1 and 2 shows that a WitE2 Inf Div requires more Fuel and Supply but less Ammo. In WitE supply moves through the system and is converted to ammo when received by a Unit. In WitE2 freight moves through the system and ammo is separate from supply.

In WitE2 the average 100% holdings for 41 Inf Divs at 100% TOE are 238T Supply, 98T Fuel and 507T Ammo. Do not confuse holdings with requirement. Requirement varies by activity within a given turn and the size of unit being supplied. Holdings are not equal to the supplies needed for a single turn. Doing less and not being at full strength reduces the amount to replenish holdings. Doing more and being bigger requires more. An Inf Div at 100% TOE that does absolutely nothing and not subject to attrition requires just over 90T of Supplies a Turn. The opposite is difficult to ascertain as there are so many variables in movement and combat. It is also possible in WitE2 to gain supply in combat and not just in the logistics phase.

There are 88 German Divisions (with 8 different TOEs) on map at the start of GC41. The vast majority have 135% of their Ammo, 130% of their Supply and 125% of their Fuel. They don't require anything at the very start and given they are holding in excess of their normal amounts hardly evidence that we have nerfed supply.

[chuckfourth]

Red Lancer it is amazing how much effort you will go to to NOT answer my question, and try to put a positive spin on the supply nerf I've identified in WITE2.

I am not interested in Holdings. I want to know what the Requirements are. You refuse to tell me. There is a WITE2 screenshot above that shows it at 750 it should be 560 at the start of GC41.

Sure they have high HOLDINGS at the start of the game but their bloated REQUIREMENT means they have to operate at an inflated REQUIREMENT for the rest of the game.

Stop dancing around the question and please tell me what the requirement tonnage is for the German infantry divisions at the start of the GC41

[carlkay58]

chuckfourth - I will tell you the following answer to your question:

WE DON"T KNOW! Every division will have different requirements based on the following factors:

1. Manpower
2. Equipment
3. Morale
4. Fatigue
5. Nationality
6. Terrain
7. Weather
8. Movement
9. Combat
10. Supply Priority (this may determine which depot is supplying the unit)
11. Distance to supplying depot in MPs
12. Type of depot (port/rail)
13. Depot Priority
14. Railyard size and any damage in Depot hex
15. Leadership at the Corps level and the distance to the Corps HQ AND the command points the Corps HQ has MODIFIED by whether or not the commanding Army HQ is in Assault Mode
16. Leadership at the Army level and the distance to the Army HQ and the command points the Army HQ has modified by whether or not the it is in Assault Mode
17. Leadership at the Army Group level and the distance to the HQ
18. Leadership at the OKH level and the distance to the HQ

Given all of those options and elements it is impossible to say exactly what the supply needs of any unit will be. We can talk about averages (which we have). We can talk about examples (which we have). We could POSSIBLY find a copy of the German military manuals on logistics and find what they thought on the matter (some of which has been done). But we CANNOT give you a specific tonnage that would work.

I CAN tell you that a normal German Infantry Army will require about 1500 freight points per turn to stay supplied in most circumstances in good weather in 1941. A German Panzer Army will require about 2200 freight during that same time. This I know from experience on playtesting WitE2 over the past four years.

Do with it as you will.

I will also say that my personal feeling is that this system is too easy on the Axis supply situation. I do recognize that there is a good case that the reason I feel that is that the German Army commanders did not pay any attention to their logistics officers during the war and thus really made it impossible for them to be supplied properly. That also applies to the German High Command and Hitler himself. So I could easily be wrong about that. It is a judgement call.

[chuckfourth]

Hi carlKey58 Thank you for your reponse.
Yes we do know carlkay58. All that needs to be done is to load up GC41 pick some "average" infantry divisions and post the supply requirements they have.
When looking at these sort of questions we use a method called "all things being equal" The "average" requirement should be 560 you have shown me a screenshot (Thankyou) that has 750. At the start turn of GC41 all thinks will be equal (ie fatigue isn't a factor, Nationality isn't a factor because we are just interested in Germans, they haven't moved, Manpower and equipment is a given, etc etc.) we should be able to get an average or baseline value for a German infantry division at rest. That is the value the Moderators wont give me which obviously begs the question why not, its so easy to do.

After WITE1 I am very suspicious of the Moderator's and the game. I do not want to buy the game and find another a-historic or as in WITE1 nerfed supply system. So I am trying to ask some questions, the moderators are squirming around like I don't know what to avoid answering these simple straight forward questions.

So to rephrase my questions can someone please just read off some of the average German infantry supply requirements on the counters on turn one of GC41 are they around 750 or 560? once I have this basic detail then we can move on to discussing the rest of the supply system

and by the way I didn't make up 560 tons that is from the US war department most sources actually quote a supply requirement that is substantially lower.

I will look at what freight points are soon but Because I am being blocked about what the requirement tonnage is I don't want to get sidetracked.

What concerns me as that there are serious omissions in the game, for example try this one
The Germans had doubled the fuel carrying capacity of the Armoured and Motorised divisions for the start of the operation, giving them a range of about 500-600 miles on road -before- they needed refueling.
is that in the game?

[carlkay58]

Here is a screen shot, as you asked, on turn 1 before anything occurred. Where the unit is full of stuff and has no supply information because it is the start of the game and turn 1 skips the Axis Logistics Phase. It is also over supplied.

As to your other points - the US War Document on supply logistics in modern war understated the daily supply requirements for Operation Desert Storm by over 100%. Fortunately the war planners had enough supplies in theater for a much longer war so it worked okay.

If you take the panzers on turn 1 and send them out as far as they will go so all 50 MPs are in movement only. They are cut off from resupply during the Soviet turn so they get no resupply. The Axis now cuts a supply corridor back to them (so they are not in supply conservation mode) they will have another 30 or so MPs for the second turn which will give them enough MPs to get past Smolensk. But that is not traveling on roads but rather cross country. I think that the answer for your final question is Yes.

[Zovs]

chuckfourth,

I am sure nothing will please you nor convince you, but here are some numbers none-the-less.

AGN

291 ID
Supplies (In Unit): 304 [131%] Required 232
Fuel (In Unit): 63 [126%] Required 50
Ammo (In Unit): 638 [132%] Required 480

AGC

28 ID
Supplies (In Unit): 309 [130%] Required 237
Fuel (In Unit): 67 [124%] Required 54
Ammo (In Unit): 704 [134%] Required 524

AGS

44 ID
Supplies (In Unit): 309 [130%] Required 237
Fuel (In Unit): 67 [126%] Required 54
Ammo (In Unit): 704 [134%] Required 525


AGN

1 PzD
Supplies (In Unit): 217 [130%] Required 166
Fuel (In Unit): 661 [123%] Required 537
Ammo (In Unit): 875 [158%] Required 552
Vehicles (In Unit): 2660 [93%] Required 2852

AGC

18 PzD
Supplies (In Unit): 219 [131%] Required 166
Fuel (In Unit): 811 [131%] Required 619
Ammo (In Unit): 993 [185%] Required 535
Vehicles (In Unit): 2892 [93%] Required 3090

AGS

11 PzD
Supplies (In Unit): 213 [131%] Required 162
Fuel (In Unit): 628 [126%] Required 498
Ammo (In Unit): 822 [163%] Required 502
Vehicles (In Unit): 2661 [94%] Required 2825