Stepping away...

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

Moderator: Joel Billings

User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39641
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: Stepping away...

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Thogode
Here, if you are asking about a certain topic, you mostly get the answer: WitE2 is broken, because ...
Maybe I am wrong or looking at this forum with a bias, but this is my impression about the last weeks here. Or I am simply missing your experience.

We went through stages of this type of feedback on WITE1, WITW, WITP, etc. Not to diminish the specific feedback, which is always read and investigated, but in a complex wargame that aims for history there are just about infinitely variable outcomes so there's almost always something unusual that can be highlighted. The rules are also complex enough that for those who start to dive into the more advanced options in the game, there can be many misunderstandings or corner cases that don't make sense. Again, we read and investigate all such concerns. Some turn out to be on point, others are mistaken, but improving the game over time is different from the game being at any point "broken".

Each player may have their own main concern or issue, but there's nothing I've seen whether issue or not that couldn't be worked around with a house rule if needed and the real issues are already under investigation and being addressed.

I've found WITE2 both pre and post-release to be both playable and fun and I expect it will become more so over time as improvements are made based on player feedback. With all of these games, the size, scope and complexity means that it's inevitable that the more play it gets, the more feedback we get, the more the game improves.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
User avatar
GibsonPete
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:53 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

Zemke;
Q: "Anyone want to explain all this to a dumb Grunt?"

A: A fellow Grunt rubs the side of his head with his knuckles, slaps his sloped forehead and says, "Magic". [&:]
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
User avatar
GibsonPete
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:53 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

I have not see the bias that I observed in WETE 1. The developers and the play testers have my sincere appreciation for the product they have created and continue to perfect. The insight I have received from the players (and Matrix staff) who have shared their knowledge has made me a better player and allowed me to enjoy the game even more. [&o]
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
User avatar
IslandInland
Posts: 1185
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:54 pm
Location: YORKSHIRE
Contact:

RE: Stepping away...

Post by IslandInland »

It always makes laugh when a frequenter of a forum posts they are leaving said forum.

Beta Tester for:
War In The East 2 & Steel Inferno Expansion
War In The West Operation Torch
Strategic Command American Civil War
Strategic Command WWII: War in the Pacific
XXXCorps
1941 Hitler's Dream Scenario for WITE 2
MarkShot
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:04 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by MarkShot »

For those who were lost with what I said about implementation:

* I like the game.

* Even if not for the BG legacy, the team chose the only feasible architecture for a game of this scope given current hardware limitations.

The game is not a grotesque aberration or the result of poor engineering skills. It is, in fact, a very well executed development project (a professional opinion).
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 8990
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

For those who were lost with what I said about implementation:

* I like the game.

* Even if not for the BG legacy, the team chose the only feasible architecture for a game of this scope given current hardware limitations.

The game is not a grotesque aberration or the result of poor engineering skills. It is, in fact, a very well executed development project (a professional opinion).

The people that are posting still are the ones that LOVE the game. Of those people you have two groups, The Soviet Side & the German Side. These are the people that love the game so dearly that post threads will be brought to the forfront in hopes of making this game even better with these posts. See that is the Crux. Some believe these posts are trying to destroy the game into something else when in reality, if we just stop to listen and understand these players, it is the LOVE of this game that makes us want to contribute.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
User avatar
Thogode
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:19 pm
Location: North Germany

RE: Stepping away...

Post by Thogode »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Thogode
Here, if you are asking about a certain topic, you mostly get the answer: WitE2 is broken, because ...
Maybe I am wrong or looking at this forum with a bias, but this is my impression about the last weeks here. Or I am simply missing your experience.

...

Each player may have their own main concern or issue, but there's nothing I've seen whether issue or not that couldn't be worked around with a house rule if needed and the real issues are already under investigation and being addressed.

I've found WITE2 both pre and post-release to be both playable and fun and I expect it will become more so over time as improvements are made based on player feedback. With all of these games, the size, scope and complexity means that it's inevitable that the more play it gets, the more feedback we get, the more the game improves.

Regards,

- Erik

Many thanks for your encouraging reply.

As WitPAE or WitW were "patched" for a long time, I am sure WitE2 will evolve in the future.

Unfortunately some of the most active posters here are not the most helpful.


Aurelian
Posts: 4073
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:08 pm

RE: Stepping away...

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

It always makes laugh when a frequenter of a forum posts they are leaving said forum.


But if you don't announce it, you won't get the replies of "Don't leave." :) My usual cynical self.
Building a new PC.
wpurdom
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Decatur, GA, USA

RE: Stepping away...

Post by wpurdom »

The fundamental problems of the game in terms of balance and 'realism' come from its nature and are inherent to its audience's desires and the asymmetric value of hindsight.

The game mechanics eliminate friction on your own side, getting rid of at least 1/3 of the reason no plan survives contact with the enemy. The ability to do repeat testing. You know what the combat value of your force is, and after some experimentation and repetition have an unduly precise idea of how combat operates. The detailed info about the mechanics and the ability to do repeated test games may eliminate another third. Battles have more of in common with a choreographed ballet, or at least a sports game, such as football, than they do of combat. Now the Germans, after two years of combat have a fair idea of what there forces could accomplish tactically and what the abilities of their commanders were. The Soviets, in contrast, don't have a clue except as to Zhukov and Timoshenko. Stalin thinks Voroshilov (sp?) is a great commander, and Rossokovsky has just been released from prison.

In the real world, once of Stalin's biggest concerns is the political collapse of his regime when face3d with defeats. He has no idea that Hitler will not even attempt to build on the wide-spread opposition among the subject nations and plans to starve to death 1/5 of the Soviet population. The game player has no political concerns, the VP system doesn't give a rational basis for standing and fighting. to duplicate the command side, one would have to randomize the command values of Soviet commanders and make their true values unknown except by performance until perhaps gradually unmaking them btween November 41 and June 42. Knowing the worth of commanders along with them having their full competence from the beginning are probably 2 big reasons the 1941 Red army fights more like the 1942 Red Army and the 1942 army fights like 1943.

The strategic insights from hindsight are almost all on the Soviet side. About the only thing the German picks up is go ahead and take Leningrad if you can, rather than relying on starvation (and maybe you can't take Moscow against a competent commander). The Soviet knows from the beginning that you can't form a solid defense before the rains, you should concentrate on avoiding encirclements (Kiev), December 1942 doesn't usually mark a complete turning point (there's a spring recovery coming) and you can't just keep on attacking willy-nilly regardless of losses, and you shouldn't put the cream of your army into a massive counter-attack in the spring (Kharkov) unless you've had remarkable success all through the winter. And to put a topping on the desert, the Soviet player has an exact understanding of the mechanics of creating elite formations, the German is stuck with the historical ones.

I get the impression that the mechanics of combat in this game are very ably modelled, but that does not mean one should expect historical results given the above factors - if the Germans are doing as well as the historical Germans then either the German commander is considerably superior or the mechanics are probably tilted ahistorically in the Axis direction.

But the grognards(sp?) who want this sort of game would, and myself to tell the truth, probably hate building the friction internal within your own army, and it would ruin the feel of authenticity to make the second best Soviet commander be General Slobin rather than a well-known historic commander. If you're going to balance the game while keeping the combat modelling as accurate as possible, then you probably need to look at the VP system or house rules.
AlbertN
Posts: 4272
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:44 pm
Location: Italy

RE: Stepping away...

Post by AlbertN »

I quite agree with Wpurdom here - but I've sung and preached that around already across the board.
panzer51
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

I would strongly support having dynamic commanders, with their stats improving or not depending on their battle results.
User avatar
GibsonPete
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:53 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

Panzer 51 +1 on that. It would assist both sides based on quality of the player managing his leaders.
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
AlbertN
Posts: 4272
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:44 pm
Location: Italy

RE: Stepping away...

Post by AlbertN »

I believe there is there - the factor that leaders can improve their ratings over time; I do not know how often or what is required but most stats can skill up to 6, and I believe Political and Morale up to 8. It's on the manual anyhow and I may be wrong in numbers.

It is normal it is not a common happening thought, or leaders would skill up pretty quickly in general.
User avatar
Zemke
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:45 am
Location: Oklahoma

RE: Stepping away...

Post by Zemke »

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

The fundamental problems of the game in terms of balance and 'realism' come from its nature and are inherent to its audience's desires and the asymmetric value of hindsight.

The game mechanics eliminate friction on your own side, getting rid of at least 1/3 of the reason no plan survives contact with the enemy. The ability to do repeat testing. You know what the combat value of your force is, and after some experimentation and repetition have an unduly precise idea of how combat operates. The detailed info about the mechanics and the ability to do repeated test games may eliminate another third. Battles have more of in common with a choreographed ballet, or at least a sports game, such as football, than they do of combat. Now the Germans, after two years of combat have a fair idea of what there forces could accomplish tactically and what the abilities of their commanders were. The Soviets, in contrast, don't have a clue except as to Zhukov and Timoshenko. Stalin thinks Voroshilov (sp?) is a great commander, and Rossokovsky has just been released from prison.

In the real world, once of Stalin's biggest concerns is the political collapse of his regime when face3d with defeats. He has no idea that Hitler will not even attempt to build on the wide-spread opposition among the subject nations and plans to starve to death 1/5 of the Soviet population. The game player has no political concerns, the VP system doesn't give a rational basis for standing and fighting. to duplicate the command side, one would have to randomize the command values of Soviet commanders and make their true values unknown except by performance until perhaps gradually unmaking them btween November 41 and June 42. Knowing the worth of commanders along with them having their full competence from the beginning are probably 2 big reasons the 1941 Red army fights more like the 1942 Red Army and the 1942 army fights like 1943.

The strategic insights from hindsight are almost all on the Soviet side. About the only thing the German picks up is go ahead and take Leningrad if you can, rather than relying on starvation (and maybe you can't take Moscow against a competent commander). The Soviet knows from the beginning that you can't form a solid defense before the rains, you should concentrate on avoiding encirclements (Kiev), December 1942 doesn't usually mark a complete turning point (there's a spring recovery coming) and you can't just keep on attacking willy-nilly regardless of losses, and you shouldn't put the cream of your army into a massive counter-attack in the spring (Kharkov) unless you've had remarkable success all through the winter. And to put a topping on the desert, the Soviet player has an exact understanding of the mechanics of creating elite formations, the German is stuck with the historical ones.

I get the impression that the mechanics of combat in this game are very ably modelled, but that does not mean one should expect historical results given the above factors - if the Germans are doing as well as the historical Germans then either the German commander is considerably superior or the mechanics are probably tilted ahistorically in the Axis direction.

But the grognards(sp?) who want this sort of game would, and myself to tell the truth, probably hate building the friction internal within your own army, and it would ruin the feel of authenticity to make the second best Soviet commander be General Slobin rather than a well-known historic commander. If you're going to balance the game while keeping the combat modelling as accurate as possible, then you probably need to look at the VP system or house rules.

I agree with the above. However I don't think leaders are the cause, rather the perfect hindsight both players have on what really happened. I am talking about PvP games NOT AI games. Also, messing with leader ratings kind of ruins the "role-playing" aspect that is a neat feature of the game.

I have said in other posts the VP system is the easiest method to force something different from the Russian human player. Currently, everything wpurdom said is true, there is no reason for Russia to fight for anything and they come out of 41 into 42 much stronger.

I am playing an experimental game with another player where Germany is set to 110 morale, with the thought that this would allow the Germans to get closer to historical advance rates. Frankly, German 110 morale did not have the results thought. The Germans are more effective in 41, and do get slightly further, but not excessively so. In 42 the Germans make up some lost ground and inflict a lot of losses on the Soviets. How this plays out into 43 we are not sure, as we are not into March of 43. Without a German Stalingrad, German manpower is pretty strong, and the 10 points of morale is a huge help.

So in 41 the Soviets don't suffer huge losses, no Keiv, it is only in 42 that the Germans were able to really hurt the Soviet side, forcing them to fight, as now retreating into the depths of Russia is not always going to work.

Anyway, the point is even a 110 morale increase for Germany does not solve the problem. I think one solution is changing the VP / Objectives to force the Russians to fight in 41 more often and perhaps boosting the German ability only in 1941 to get close to historical results. And yes I understand there will never be perfect historical results.
"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
MarkShot
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:04 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by MarkShot »

Is not the meta war an exercise in hind sight with the whole city dates, TBs, and initiative flip?

But to be honest, the game ventures into alternate history enough for me. I want to better understand WWII than a Road to 56.

Still I want balanced game. As already demonstrated that can be built into the scoring system instead of skewing weapons stats, production, or actual numbers.

It's okay when a 20 turn scenario is "best played as", but not a 300 turn campaign.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
User avatar
Joch1955
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:25 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by Joch1955 »

As others have said, if the issue is that the Russian player does not stand and fight, I would think the easiest way to force that would be by adjusting victory conditions. The Axis player already get higher points if they capture a city faster than the Axis did historically. Perhaps the bonus should be increased so there is an incentive to stay and fight.
panzer51
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

Easiest thing - not to relocate industry. So you have a refinery, you don't fight you lose it and fuel production for good. Relocation should also take up some rail capacity, it typically took several hundred railroad cars and several trains to move the equipment and personnel. Now it simply disappears and reappears somewhere else.
User avatar
GibsonPete
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:53 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

A simple Request
~ Relocating factories reduce the Soviets rail capacity as it did historically.

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
User avatar
GibsonPete
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:53 am

RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

Zemke, I believe you should have increased logistics not morale in your 'what if' scenario.
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Stepping away...

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

A simple Request
~ Relocating factories reduce the Soviets rail capacity as it did historically.


it does, but remember that in WiTE2 you do not have the abstraction in #1 of a global rail cap, its localised to where the entraining takes place
Post Reply

Return to “Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2”