Axis allies useless?

[Stamb]

if only you can send Romanians to a different TBs than Garrison...


you would still need probably 3 or 4 Rom divisions for 1 German ID.
But it would be well worth it if you plan to fight with them and not only dig ground

[Stamb]

Based on this topic:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=382068

The lower morale/exp the bigger chance to route.
Italy has 40 NM. Its their fate to route :/

[Stamb]

Why is Italian NM 40 anyways?
Worse than Soviet conscripts
Worse than Soviet peoples militas divisons
This is for trained Italian prewar divisons

Exactly.

1.png (245.72 KiB) Viewed 1074 times

Basically random Soviet people with a weapons have better morale (which is not morale as you understand it, but a combination of fighting skills and etc) than a trained, even if it is not the greatest army in the world, but still trained soldiers.

I do not find any logic here

[malyhin1517]

Italian elite units have a high experience of 60-70, not 40!

[AlbertN]

Italian 'Elite' have 60 NM (which is what really matters in the end).
Some units have a different Morale - but it will harmonize over time to NM.

And with their shoddy TOEs, Equipment, etc - they are simply insignificant except maybe Alpinis in mountain hexes.

Italian base NM should be 55. Italian Security and Coastal Divisions should be flagged as 'LW Feld' ones (-10 NM, 45 fits for them as they were 2nd tier troops).

Italian Motorized Units should net +10 NM like Germans. - Some of the Italian Motorized units can lose the Elite Status as now they're at 65 NM and Italy was not some expert mobile warfare power.
Italian real Alpini division are Elite and Alpini and go up to 75 NM which is smooth and fine for these units.
Airborne Units should be Elite.

I believe for what concerns NM that sorts the Italians smoothly.
Some of their leaders had the stats tweaked - not sure how but I think some Infantry 6 is not unreasonable for Italy. (Not that relevant anyhow for WITE but if one goes for War in Europe or so - surely so).

Otherwise as Italy is now, in a full game, the Brits will be in Tripoli in early '41!

[jubjub]

I'm just going to start posting instances where the axis allies perform well.

[PeteJC]

One specific use I find helpful (I have not read this whole post so apologies if redundant) is to use all the cavalry and the one tank division as recon for the 1st Panzer Group. I always run recon air missions, but they tend to not pick up the entire AI front line. Running the cavalry and the tank unit ahead can fill in the missing pieces and give you a full picture for what your 1st PG must deal with each turn. Otherwise, if you give them a relatively small front or use them to eliminate previously surrounded and supply starved cities (i.e. Zap.) they can help. They are better than nothing...

[DarkHorse2]

One specific use I find helpful (I have not read this whole post so apologies if redundant) is to use all the cavalry and the one tank division as recon for the 1st Panzer Group. I always run recon air missions, but they tend to not pick up the entire AI front line. Running the cavalry and the tank unit ahead can fill in the missing pieces and give you a full picture for what your 1st PG must deal with each turn. Otherwise, if you give them a relatively small front or use them to eliminate previously surrounded and supply starved cities (i.e. Zap.) they can help. They are better than nothing...

Seems like a good use.

Despite their combat ratings, they are fairly mobile, can flip hexes with their divisions exerting ZOC.

Cavalry, in general, seem to be able to navigate swamps fairly well.

https://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=35

[loki100]

Italians are useful when they can pick their battles



both sides shed a lot of cv due to low supply (thus problems with resupply etc)

and that without air support and their command chain is Exped corps-OKH (so basically reliant just on the corps leader)

[Jango32]

The Italians still manage to suffer more casualties in clear terrain when they outnumber the enemy more than 2:1 in infantry, more than 2:1 in guns and almost 5:1 in AFVs, with a 3:1 higher initial CV...

[Stamb]

Check reaction of this dude:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1445001610?t=00h15m44s

[Stamb]

The Italians still manage to suffer more casualties in clear terrain when they outnumber the enemy more than 2:1 in infantry, more than 2:1 in guns and almost 5:1 in AFVs, with a 3:1 higher initial CV...

Also the thing is that some of a Soviet losses come from a retreat, not just from a battle. If loki shows battle details then we will see how many Soviets were killed in a battle itself.
While Italian losses are only from a battle.

[loki100]

actually the Soviets suffered very litte on the retreat - assume as they were motorised



yes the Italians lost more, but they won (and they were the attacking side) in a battle where the Soviets didn't collapse.

And in the context of that turn, that was a very useful win as I used something second rate to clear a path that enabled me to generate an encirclement, if I'd had to divert German units then I wouldn't have closed the pocket

or, in other words, Axis allies are pretty useful - in the right situation. Elsewhere, the Rumanian 3 Army is doing a good job clearing the Soviet defences in the Crimea



and yes, its a situation that deliberately favours them, but again that is German CPP preserved for later

[Jango32]

So while Axis allied performance in combat is absolutely dreadful, their use is that when triple-stacked for an attack with overwhelming numbers and CV advantage they might be able to cause a Soviet retreat so the German units will have to move in and finish the job anyway, albeit against a slightly weakened Soviet unit.

What about the number of damaged elements?

[Stamb]

I still think that i was correct with this message:

Their CV that is displayed is fake. Like it was fake for an urban hexes. It will be lower than displayed in 99% of a battles.

[Stamb]

When people post screenshots of battles - please show details.

As in a details we will see how many men and equipment were lost (and how much from a retreat). Most of the times it will be not in a favor of Axis allies like on a screenshots above. Despite having huge advantage in numbers.

[Killmaster851]

actually the Soviets suffered very litte on the retreat - assume as they were motorised



yes the Italians lost more, but they won (and they were the attacking side) in a battle where the Soviets didn't collapse.

And in the context of that turn, that was a very useful win as I used something second rate to clear a path that enabled me to generate an encirclement, if I'd had to divert German units then I wouldn't have closed the pocket

or, in other words, Axis allies are pretty useful - in the right situation. Elsewhere, the Rumanian 3 Army is doing a good job clearing the Soviet defences in the Crimea



and yes, its a situation that deliberately favours them, but again that is German CPP preserved for later

Ten to one on an open hex deliberate attack and it hardly hurt the cavalry divison i bet it only retreated one hex!
You have to be a racist to think that this is a acceptable result!

[loki100]

...
Ten to one on an open hex deliberate attack and it hardly hurt the cavalry divison i bet it only retreated one hex!
You have to be a racist to think that this is a acceptable result!

no idea what you mean by suggesting I'm being racist? But maybe not the best way to phrase what you meant to say?

Point is some in this thread suggest the Axis Allied forces are useless, have no value etc. Well I'll agree they are weak and need care but they have a real value if you accept that. So yes, using the Italian corps to clear a ZoC that in turn gave me a pocket is a good use of them. If I'd diverted a German formation to that attack I wouldn't have been able to seal the pocket.

So one thing I do is to construct situations where they pick up wins (and thus experience/morale). Sometimes I'll chuck them in with German divisions just for the bonus, sometimes I'll use them at corps strength against a relatively weak target. All adds up.

If you then manage their supply situation with some care you can get them enough over the base NM for them to start to perform just that bit better.

By 1943, defensively the Hungarians are pretty good. By then I start using the Rumanians just to absorb Soviet CPP, they are on their way out of the war, you usually have a good manpower stock, and its fun to do to the Soviets in the mid/late game what they do to the axis in 1941.

[homer82]

actually the Soviets suffered very litte on the retreat - assume as they were motorised



yes the Italians lost more, but they won (and they were the attacking side) in a battle where the Soviets didn't collapse.

And in the context of that turn, that was a very useful win as I used something second rate to clear a path that enabled me to generate an encirclement, if I'd had to divert German units then I wouldn't have closed the pocket

or, in other words, Axis allies are pretty useful - in the right situation. Elsewhere, the Rumanian 3 Army is doing a good job clearing the Soviet defences in the Crimea



and yes, its a situation that deliberately favours them, but again that is German CPP preserved for later

Ten to one on an open hex deliberate attack and it hardly hurt the cavalry divison i bet it only retreated one hex!
You have to be a racist to think that this is a acceptable result!

That's an interesting concept. Why exactly would one be racist (a very strong term) to think this a acceptable result?

[AlbertN]

I am not in their head - but I believe it has been a form of miswording / miscomunication; or the desire of conceptualization of superior / inferior humane material in more absolute level than what generally accepted (ie. average age, health levels).

Said that I reiterate my support for the cause of buffing up the Axis smaller powers combat efficiency.