Alekmalek quit WITE2 because of WW1 grinding

[Beethoven1]

Alekmalek was playing a Soviet grand campaign on the Soviet side. Axis AAR is here - https://discord.com/channels/9438273612 ... 1758395473

He got to turn 95, in 1943, and finally quit out of frustration with WW1 grinding.

Various players, including myself, encouraged him to create a thread in order to share his experience so that the game devs could be aware of it.

However, he didn't want to bother, because he thought it was not worth the effort to post anything on the forum because he thought nobody would listen to him or fix the problem with WW1 grinding.

And so, I am creating this thread for him on his behalf, in which I will post some excerpts of what he posted on discord describing his frustrations.

This is the sort of thing which unfortunately can make people quit the game and never come back to it.

The following are quotes from him on discord. His name is colored white, indicating he left the Kulik WITE2 discord server, presumably quitting WITE2 forever out of frustration. The point of posting this is to provide some evidence visible to the devs that this is in fact messing up people's games:

1,2
1680-22784



3,4
5871-29963







anotherone
1,2,3



and again and again every 1st or 2nd turn

I could not to do nothing (and any one could not, I mean) -ww1 continue in 1943 also, and 99-20.000 losses ratio again and again

This is unplayable in general, I mean. I surrenged - I spent year of life -tried to organize my heap of crap better, see another 3-5-10 battle with 99-20000 ratio, try to orginize again and see another half a dozen battles 99-20.000 again, and it was 90+ turns










When found some stupid men to spent a hours own tiem -try orginized a piece of crap only to see another one series 99-20.000 on next turn

I spent about 1 year and i a bit bored

Yeah, 6-237 at air battles. it is a fine. A years of criung to nerf soviet are working well

Fine game! You need to start write articles for devs on forum, I mean, as alredy advised for me

Ok, I finished, best wishes to everyone

[Beethoven1]

Here are a couple of additional screenshots from neaugustus' Axis AAR showing the ridiculously lopsided routs from WW1 grinding (trying to pick some different battles from the ones alekmalek showed himself as well).

In general, the way all these battles work is you do 1 attack, the unit retreats, and then you do a follow up attack with mobile units and inflict 100% losses on the defender. There is no reason for the attacking player to do pockets or mobile warfare, because you can just do this and inflict as many (or more) losses via WW1 grinding, with 0 risk of counterattack:

[Zebtucker12]

Being ww1 grinded ( the loss ratio is worse than desertstrom it stould be called being saddammed) made kulik stop playing also. Seing that your well dugg in force have taken 500 to one losses do make you lose a bit of intrest in the game everytime.

[neaugustus]

As an axis player I can share my own opinion on the situation:

The game has been mostly normal until late summer 42, when I realised I have to fight with so many soviet counters that any dreams of yolo pockets disappeared. So I've decided to abandon my advance further to my targets and switch to mostly defensive style with local WWI combat operations. Anytime I saw a sloppy positioning of soviets triple stacks I dislodged it first and after that let off my panzers to inflict severe losses. That strategy paid off really well in my opinion: I avoided any big blunders and didn't lose a single division in a pocket; I've mostly managed to preserve my panzer forces, as I usually located them behind infantry and when I used them panzer losses were hilariously low; I can say that I've achieved a huge psychological success over my opponent, as I feel like a constant though about possibility of such devastating losses from grind greatly affects on how bold and buoyant a possible soviet advance can be.

I can understand that frustration from my opp. We've played for like a year. I almost had the same feeling when I understood that I can't really advance further anymore.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

As an axis player I can share my own opinion on the situation:

The game has been mostly normal until late summer 42, when I realised I have to fight with so many soviet counters that any dreams of yolo pockets disappeared. So I've decided to abandon my advance further to my targets and switch to mostly defensive style with local WWI combat operations. Anytime I saw a sloppy positioning of soviets triple stacks I dislodged it first and after that let off my panzers to inflict severe losses. That strategy paid off really well in my opinion: I avoided any big blunders and didn't lose a single division in a pocket; I've mostly managed to preserve my panzer forces, as I usually located them behind infantry and when I used them panzer losses were hilariously low; I can say that I've achieved a huge psychological success over my opponent, as I feel like a constant though about possibility of such devastating losses from grind greatly affects on how bold and buoyant a possible soviet advance can be.

I can understand that frustration from my opp. We've played for like a year. I almost had the same feeling when I understood that I can't really advance further anymore.

Is this a server game or PBEM?

[Gray Lensman_MatrixForum]

Is this a server game or PBEM?

Does it matter? It points to a serious replayability flaw that might be a major redesign issue. It will be interesting to see how the developers mitigate/nerf this style of gameplay

[rickwarintheeast]

I was taken by the idea of retreating to defendable terrain. In small unit tactics, part of the plan is an exit plan if things go belly up.

But what does that mean? It doesn't always mean the best terrain. It could mean maintaining a continuous front, or holding a road open, or almost anything. That sounds like intricate programming. Could we have something like the WITW air attack menu...select prestanding orders? Maybe at the Soviet Army level, but unit level would be tedious.

Another alternative would add an entire new phase to the game...let the defending commander decide, unit by unit, where to retreat. But I doubt we would see that any time soon.

BTW - I have played mostly the Soviets, starting at Stalingrad. And by 1944, the grind works really well...stacked RCs hitting a unit and driving it back...then TCs running over the top of it. But I must do it wrong because my TCs tend to get beat up. Maybe I'm dispersing them too much, and need to concentrate them for the BIG break through.

Regards,

Rick

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Is this a server game or PBEM?

Does it matter? It points to a serious replayability flaw that might be a major redesign issue. It will be interesting to see how the developers mitigate/nerf this style of gameplay

No it does not matter in the least..... Unless I wanted to pick up the Soviet side to continue on with the game to try some things. So yeah it matters for that but not with the current mindset that is already in place.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Is this a server game or PBEM?

Does it matter? It points to a serious replayability flaw that might be a major redesign issue. It will be interesting to see how the developers mitigate/nerf this style of gameplay

No it does not matter in the least..... Unless I wanted to pick up the Soviet side to continue on with the game to try some things. So yeah it matters for that but not with the current mindset that is already in place.

I remember the SAME exact thing back awhile ago saying how crappy Germans were, same author of this thread to be exact.


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=385780


Lo and behold things were shown how Germans should play and the whole scales were turned upside down right after that.

I believe we are at the SAME point here in this thread, where the META needs to be nerfed with pitchforks and torches. I see it another way without the "pitchforks" and "torches", especially seeing how this game is into 43. But that is just me and I almost always swim differently than everyone else.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I know by just looking at the screenshots I could take Berlin playing this game. I would even say the OOB is through the roof for the Soviets 6 million plus at this stage.

[Gray Lensman_MatrixForum]

Is this a server game or PBEM?

Does it matter? It points to a serious replayability flaw that might be a major redesign issue. It will be interesting to see how the developers mitigate/nerf this style of gameplay

No it does not matter in the least..... Unless I wanted to pick up the Soviet side to continue on with the game to try some things. So yeah it matters for that but not with the current mindset that is already in place.

Good point and good luck... but this isn't the first time this "double tap" grinding method has been brought up. It will be interesting to see if a "counter" can be found within the current rules set. I suspect not. Meanwhile, since I have all the patience in the world for players/developers to work out the kinks, I'll just continue reading "The Road to Stalingrad/The Road to Berlin" books interspersed with a daily turn or so of WITP-AE

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Does it matter? It points to a serious replayability flaw that might be a major redesign issue. It will be interesting to see how the developers mitigate/nerf this style of gameplay

No it does not matter in the least..... Unless I wanted to pick up the Soviet side to continue on with the game to try some things. So yeah it matters for that but not with the current mindset that is already in place.

I remember the SAME exact thing back awhile ago saying how crappy Germans were, same author of this thread to be exact.


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=385780


Lo and behold things were shown how Germans should play and the whole scales were turned upside down right after that.

I believe we are at the SAME point here in this thread, where the META needs to be nerfed with pitchforks and torches. I see it another way without the "pitchforks" and "torches", especially seeing how this game is into 43. But that is just me and I almost always swim differently than everyone else.

Agreed. At 7M men on map the Soviet player cannot afford to be as passive as he was in this game. Remember that CPP only multiply offensive CV. If you sit back and don't attack you are letting the Axis fight at double strength the whole time.

Another point re the 'Meta'. For a long time the accepted wisdom has been for the Soviet player to give up lots of ground in 1941, especially in the South. Obviously there is a lot of sense behind this but a consequence is that you can end up with a situation in 1942 where you run out of room to retreat further and have to try and hold your ground against a 1942 Axis OOB that is stronger, more optimized and more able to focus power than in 1941. A second consequence is that by retreating in 41 the Soviet player denies the Axis player the opportunity to make pockets, fuelling the complaints of a 'grindy' game.

[Nikel]

Which is the highest modified CV ever seen?

There is a 803000 in the first Rommel as commander screenshot.

[Stamb]

Does it matter? It points to a serious replayability flaw that might be a major redesign issue. It will be interesting to see how the developers mitigate/nerf this style of gameplay

No it does not matter in the least..... Unless I wanted to pick up the Soviet side to continue on with the game to try some things. So yeah it matters for that but not with the current mindset that is already in place.

I remember the SAME exact thing back awhile ago saying how crappy Germans were, same author of this thread to be exact.


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=385780


Lo and behold things were shown how Germans should play and the whole scales were turned upside down right after that.

I believe we are at the SAME point here in this thread, where the META needs to be nerfed with pitchforks and torches. I see it another way without the "pitchforks" and "torches", especially seeing how this game is into 43. But that is just me and I almost always swim differently than everyone else.

you cant compare games with pre and post CPP change
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p5012706
shows 1.02.29 beta patch

while manual says

Errata 01.02.41:
The loss of combat preparation points (CPPs) by attacking units, instead of
always being a 50% reduction in CPP, is now based on the type of attack and
the final combat odds:

if i read that correctly then CPP changes were implemented in the patch 1.02.41
long time after that AAR

[neaugustus]

As an axis player I can share my own opinion on the situation:

The game has been mostly normal until late summer 42, when I realised I have to fight with so many soviet counters that any dreams of yolo pockets disappeared. So I've decided to abandon my advance further to my targets and switch to mostly defensive style with local WWI combat operations. Anytime I saw a sloppy positioning of soviets triple stacks I dislodged it first and after that let off my panzers to inflict severe losses. That strategy paid off really well in my opinion: I avoided any big blunders and didn't lose a single division in a pocket; I've mostly managed to preserve my panzer forces, as I usually located them behind infantry and when I used them panzer losses were hilariously low; I can say that I've achieved a huge psychological success over my opponent, as I feel like a constant though about possibility of such devastating losses from grind greatly affects on how bold and buoyant a possible soviet advance can be.

I can understand that frustration from my opp. We've played for like a year. I almost had the same feeling when I understood that I can't really advance further anymore.

Is this a server game or PBEM?

That was a PBEM game and I’ve got passwords to both sides.

[Nikel]

That was a PBEM game and I’ve got passwords to both sides.

May you post a screenshot of the Soviet oob?

[Teo41_ITA]

Which is the highest modified CV ever seen?

There is a 803000 in the first Rommel as commander screenshot.

I've seen this modifier only when playing against the AI (and when the AI has its secret bonus CV modifiers against the player).

[Nikel]

I've seen this modifier only when playing against the AI (and when the AI has its secret bonus CV modifiers against the player).

OK, thanks.

In a PBEM its presence is displaying a bug?

[neaugustus]

That was a PBEM game and I’ve got passwords to both sides.

May you post a screenshot of the Soviet oob?

https://discord.com/channels/9438273612 ... 1758395473

That is my AAR in discord, I’ve got there Soviet OOB and other interesting numbers. Can’t attach screenshots directly to the forum page at the moment.

[Nikel]

Thanks, but you need registration to discord.

I will wait if you do not mind to post it in this forum