Ways to make Air Support more effective/worth supply

[DocHawkeye]

So reading the forum i've really gotten the feeling that Air Support in WitE2 is performing sub-optimally or less effectively than it was historically. I also agree from my own games that air support seems really good at wasting supply and taking enormous losses for relatively little in return and the tradeoffs need to be improved. Doing gamey things like sending all Level Bombers to reserve after turn 1 seems way too a-historic but you'll rarely find an AAR between experienced players who don't do just this ie: minimize air operations or just house-rule them out entirely.

The 2 Player AAR thread really strongly implies a consistent problem to me of the Air Phase being nearly worthless/ineffective a layer and i'm not sure I want future campaigns of mine to play out like that. So what would everyone suggest be done as far as unit or supply editing or gameplay tailoring to increase the effectiveness of air support? I'm tempted to push up logistics scores or modify morale values somewhere to help out, but what would be the most effective mechanics for making air operations more effective in WitE2?

Edit: I'm also now reading that the issues with the air phase may not be evenly distributed between the sides right now, the Luftwaffe suffers way more from the supply system than the VVS does. The VVS sounds like it's too easy to use and is capable of just trouncing Panzer spearheads in 1941 when it wasn't doing that. I've had a lot of games against the AI where the Luftwaffe literally just stops showing up even because the AI can't reposition air assets owing to supply problems. Is there a patch on the way for this because if a fix isn't around the corner, what is everyone doing to better balance the LW and VVS right now?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

So reading the forum i've really gotten the feeling that Air Support in WitE2 is performing sub-optimally or less effectively than it was historically. I also agree from my own games that air support seems really good at wasting supply and taking enormous losses for relatively little in return and the tradeoffs need to be improved. Doing gamey things like sending all Level Bombers to reserve after turn 1 seems way too a-historic but you'll rarely find an AAR between experienced players who don't do just this ie: minimize air operations or just house-rule them out entirely.

The 2 Player AAR thread really strongly implies a consistent problem to me of the Air Phase being nearly worthless/ineffective a layer and i'm not sure I want future campaigns of mine to play out like that. So what would everyone suggest be done as far as unit or supply editing or gameplay tailoring to increase the effectiveness of air support? I'm tempted to push up logistics scores or modify morale values somewhere to help out, but what would be the most effective mechanics for making air operations more effective in WitE2?

Edit: I'm also now reading that the issues with the air phase may not be evenly distributed between the sides right now, the Luftwaffe suffers way more from the supply system than the VVS does. The VVS sounds like it's too easy to use and is capable of just trouncing Panzer spearheads in 1941 when it wasn't doing that. I've had a lot of games against the AI where the Luftwaffe literally just stops showing up even because the AI can't reposition air assets owing to supply problems. Is there a patch on the way for this because if a fix isn't around the corner, what is everyone doing to better balance the LW and VVS right now?

Huh? What is the balance issue between the LW and VVS in 41? I am not seeing it. The LW wipes the sky pretty much clear in 41 the VVS. I have a hunch that many of these games being referenced of the bombing the PZ spearheads to bits are Veteran Soviets taking candy from Noob axis players. The air war in patch 1.4 is much different than in the earlier patches. But in 1.4 the LW own the skies in 41 (in the hands of someone that knows how to use them).

I have been using my bombers throughout 41 in my current game. So, someone just gave people bad advice or reading an old AAR because of the understanding of supply when the game first came out to try and get every ounce out of the system. Now a couple of years later through many peoples hard work you don't need to send bombers to reserve.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

The lights have been turned on now lets see some bugs scurrying to do posts of doom of the air war.

[tyronec]

In my current game we are playing with no GA except Axis air base bombing on T1. So primarily just GS for bombers. It is only one game but it works well and I don't anticipate playing any other way in the future.

[tyronec]

In my current game we are playing with no GA except Axis air base bombing on T1. So primarily just GS for bombers. It is only one game but it works well and I don't anticipate playing any other way in the future.

[ranknfile]

I enjoy the air portion of the game, and find it most useful. While GS is the best use of air units, there are other useful missions as well. One thing I do not ever do is send level bombers unescorted on bombing missions. I also manually (all air groups are placed in "HOLD" position) move my air units to forward bases to keep the 109s,110s, and 87s in range; I move the long-range bombers far less often.

You can have a low-level (I use "2") Depot near an airfield to help supply it (25.4.5.).

Short ranged recon can increase Detection levels of units, as well as reveal unknown units.
Following this with a 1 hex wide bombing attack on the enemy front line can reduce the chances of their obtaining units to add to their defense against your attacks (as the interdiction imposed will deny them Administrative Movement).

I find bombing a single rail hex (preferably a double rail, also preferably a hex where two rail lines cross) can result in high usage (which should reduce enemy resupply).

Port hexes such as Odessa need Naval Interdiction to isolate it.
Strategic bombing of such a port hex's Port and Railyard weakens its defenders (and with the new Beta can also destroy material, as it should!).

I seldom but occasionally use AS missions.

Most other missions (bombing airbases after Turn 1, day 1), bombing factories, etc. is indeed a waste of time. Forget night bombing of Moscow and Leningrad as the Germans actually did; it's a complete waste. Moving short-ranged units (such as 109s) to bases far from depots does place a strain on the logistics network, but seems to be a necessary evil to me. I "tend" to follow the historical placement of units on the bases they actually occupied. I use a spreadsheet for many things, I'll attach the tab for the air unit bases.

Air Bases.zip

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[M60A3TTS]

In my current game we are playing with no GA except Axis air base bombing on T1. So primarily just GS for bombers. It is only one game but it works well and I don't anticipate playing any other way in the future.

If that is the way you want your games played, then go for it. I'd only point out that historically, the Soviet 1st, 2nd and 3rd Air Armies alone launched nearly 800,000 sorties in the war per Red Phoenix Rising by Von Hardesty and Ilya Grinberg. Playing with GS only will get the VVS nowhere near those kind of numbers. My $.02.

[trooperrob]

Have you tried a night few missions as russian to engage the LW.
Try to exhaust them before your main attack goes in.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Have you tried a night few missions as russian to engage the LW.
Try to exhaust them before your main attack goes in.

Easy, don't fly night missions as Germany. OPS losses are through the roof.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

1. Most other missions (bombing airbases after Turn 1, day 1), bombing factories, etc. is indeed a waste of time. Forget night bombing of Moscow and Leningrad as the Germans actually did; it's a complete waste.

2. Moving short-ranged units (such as 109s) to bases far from depots does place a strain on the logistics network, but seems to be a necessary evil to me. I "tend" to follow the historical placement of units on the bases they actually occupied. I use a spreadsheet for many things, I'll attach the tab for the air unit bases.

1. So bombing factories is a waste? I have done it in my other WITE2 games and done it in my current game. Granted the AA over Moscow and Leningrad is beyond "ridiculous" on losses and maybe that is what you are referencing? Or you are saying it is just plain useless?

Factory Bombing.png (488.69 KiB) Viewed 295 times

2. What exactly is the strain of logistics of fighters being brought forward? I even run AS which drain supply and really not having an issue with supply. Only when I do massive bombing runs is there a hit. For instance, my ineffective interdiction I tried out with German bombers, LOL. I knew better too but oh well, what I get for leaving the game for a bit. (German bombers are very good at interdiction!!!)

Interdiction.png (304.34 KiB) Viewed 295 times

[ranknfile]

1. So bombing factories is a waste? I have done it in my other WITE2 games and done it in my current game. Granted the AA over Moscow and Leningrad is beyond "ridiculous" on losses and maybe that is what you are referencing? Or you are saying it is just plain useless?

No, I'm saying the damage caused by bombing factories doesn't seem worth the cost involved. Attacking factories and airfields has both Flak and Operational losses (at minimum) with little gain (not "none" however). "Not worth it" but no, not "completely useless." I did neglect to mention flying an AS mission over an area you are attacking may result in intercepting an enemy GS mission before they enter the land combat hex, greatly aiding your ground attack.

I really enjoy every aspect of WitE2; including the aerial operations. I'll certainly never go back to letting the AI handle it; although admittedly, I probably had several hundred hours playing the game before ever trying to manage it manually.