Finish Theater Box Termination?

[HansBolter]

Now that I have captured Onega and taken control of Archangelsk (will occupy it next turn) does the Finish Theater Box cease to be a viable area of operations for the Soviets?

Or, does Lend Lease supply coming into Murmansk allow the isolated Soviets there to continue to operate?

[HansBolter]

Cutting off Soviet access to the Finish Theater box has had NO EFFECT on the theater box.

This is, apparently, a situation the designers never envisioned when they made the idiotic decision to turn the Finish theater into Box.

Not being able to command the Finnish front is the single biggest design failure of this game. Incredibly idiotic decision. Someone drank the kool-aid before deluding themselves into thinking that was a good choice.

[Denniss]

Please keep your comments civil. Thank you.
ahistorical playstile, especially with AI set to worst option, is always prone to break scripted events or other design decisions.

[chuckfourth]

Might not be civil, But I also think making Finland a theatre box is also a massive mistake. Especially when all the work had already been done in WITE 1 for all the relevant units.

Do the designers provide any justification for the change.

[Zovs]

This is not civil.

This is, apparently, a situation the designers never envisioned when they made the idiotic decision to turn the Finish theater into Box.

This is definitely not civil at all.

Not being able to command the Finnish front is the single biggest design failure of this game. Incredibly idiotic decision. Someone drank the kool-aid before deluding themselves into thinking that was a good choice.

[Wiedrock]

Might not be civil, But I also think making Finland a theatre box is also a massive mistake. Especially when all the work had already been done in WITE 1 for all the relevant units.

Do the designers provide any justification for the change.

I don't know the reason, but I personally prefer the approach towards WITE2's fully historical'ish path of war by several mechanics/limitations.

You can mod all you want in regards to FIN TBs or LendLease reduction and whatnot. But what you'd also need to add is the reply by the US after cutting the northern LL route, how may that reply may have looked like? What if you'd take Leningrad and Murmansk Railway aready in October? Would the US join the war earlier? How about US production then, would it have ramped up quicker? ....there's so many unknowns to alt history.
Not sure if the FIN OOB/Production is correct or if it could actually keep up with an actual war happening on MAP at all.

How the game is working a Scenario designer needs to have a vision on how the scenario is supposed to be played, adding more events may help with variability but this requires massive numbers of Events for a whole GC41 to have multiple paths resulting in different outcomes.

People can barely defend Leningrad in PvP when defending it from one side, now imagine defending it from north and south with Red Army in 41.

[HansBolter]

There was absolutely nothing uncivil about my comments.

Calling a spade a spade in not an uncivil act.

I swear this species is growing more and more thin skinned by the day.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

If one can't stand up in the face of heated criticism and defend one's actions one is already lost.

ps...There is no objective definition for the term "civil". Civility is an entirely subjective concept.
Obviously, our subjective definitions of what constitutes "civil" vary greatly.

[tyronec]

The game works fine without Finland.
We had it in WITE1 but that partly abstracted anyway. The Finns couldn't attack Lenningrad from the North. It gave another way to cut off Lenningrad by reaching the Svir river from the South but that was more of an exploit rather than something that should have been in the game. And then when you took Lenningrad you got a lot of units available.

I don't see how you could integrate Finland into WITE2 in a way that would work; the area of the map would need different unit sizing, supply is more difficult further North and Finland was not fully committed to the campaign.

I would love to see a Finland game done to the same kind of model as WITE2, as with a some of the campaigns from '39 and '40 - but am not expecting to see that from the present developers.

[RedBunny]

There was absolutely nothing uncivil about my comments.

Calling a spade a spade in not an uncivil act.

I swear this species is growing more and more thin skinned by the day.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

If one can't stand up in the face of heated criticism and defend one's actions one is already lost.

ps...There is no objective definition for the term "civil". Civility is an entirely subjective concept.
Obviously, our subjective definitions of what constitutes "civil" vary greatly.

I'm thinking you're playing WITE2 and WITW just so you can complain.

Wish I had your free time Hans, I'd find much better things to do with it.

[Zovs]

Calling folks idiots and stating they made idiotic decisions is not helpful nor good criticism. You can always get better results by using some honey rather than fire to make a point or criticism.

Using facts and logic always works for me, but I tune out name callers and shouters.

[chuckfourth]

See heres whats wrong with this forum same as WITE1 redbunny is clearly a troll yet no one says a word about his pointless unhelpful off topic troll comment, whereas someone that points out a flaw in the game that favours the Russians. well they get piled up on.

[Zovs]

See heres whats wrong with this forum same as WITE1 redbunny is clearly a troll yet no one says a word about his pointless unhelpful off topic troll comment, whereas someone that points out a flaw in the game that favours the Russians. well they get piled up on.

I think its okay to point out a flaw or weakness, but to say that the developers are idiots and make idiotic decisions is pretty much off putting, derisive, not helpful and not civil, nor gentlemanly.

Instead stating things in a more positive constructive manner is much better.

But jumping into a thread and saying basically:

"What the hell is wrong with the designers and developers and play testers for this game, what bunch of idiots and fools, any moran that has read any book in the last 10 years surely knows how screwed up these lame brain people are, in fact I could design a better game, what a waste of my time and money, blah blah blah."

Does that sound like helpful criticism? Does that contribute to the discussion? Is that civil or rude and just down right nasty?

That is what I am hearing.

Is WITE2 perfect? Nothing ever is. Is Gary and Joel moronic idiots? I don't think so.

But maybe we are for spending $80 on this game?

But I still enjoy playing it.

[chuckfourth]

Thats very good Zovs, you seem very knowledgeable can you help me with this problem?
In real life Germans repaired railways to these places at these times.

27 June - Kaunas (military railroad station)
28 June - Bajohren
6 July - Dvinsk (west bank of the Dvina)
9 July - Riga
10 July - Rezekne (shuttle traffic from Dvinsk and Riga)
11 July - Ostrov
13 July - Cherskaya (between Ostrov and Pskov)
17 July - Sebezh
24 July - Pskov"

Can that happen in the game or is it not possible like in WITE 1
Looking forward to your answer.

[HansBolter]

Frankly, I don't know either Gary or Joel well enough to be able to make the judgement call on whether, or not, they are moronic idiots. Correctly pointing out that they have made some incredibly idiotic design decisions is not in any way, shape, or form that same as labeling them "moronic idiots". Your extrapolation to hyperbole is rather offensive.

All of us possess the capacity for idiocy. All of us have made idiotic decisions at some point in our lives. All of us have undertaken idiotic actions at some point in our lives. None of us is immune. Unlike, you, I am not placing Gary and Joel on a pedestal and worshipping them as some kinds of deities who are immune from decisions and acts of idiocy.

I have correctly pointed out, on multiple occasions, that many of the design failures of both WitW and WitE2 could have been easily avoided by the inclusion of a Visual Thinker on the design team. If your design team consists entirely of number crunching codes writers, what you have succeeded at best is creating an echo chamber.

And as for the dead horse beaten concept of attracting more flies with honey than vinegar, why would anyone want to attract flies in the first place. Candy coating everything to make it palatable is not an act of civility, it is an act of cowardice.

And to Redbunny:

I don't just play the two games mentioned in order to be able to complain. I exist in order to be able to complain.

[Wiedrock]

Thats very good Zovs, you seem very knowledgeable can you help me with this problem?
In real life Germans repaired railways to these places at these times.

27 June - Kaunas (military railroad station)
28 June - Bajohren
6 July - Dvinsk (west bank of the Dvina)
9 July - Riga
10 July - Rezekne (shuttle traffic from Dvinsk and Riga)
11 July - Ostrov
13 July - Cherskaya (between Ostrov and Pskov)
17 July - Sebezh
24 July - Pskov"

Can that happen in the game or is it not possible like in WITE 1
Looking forward to your answer.

Maybe the follwing quotes help you.

A change in hex control usually results in an automatic
one hundred percent damage to that rail line. The exception
to this is rail hexes in the Baltic region that maybe captured
intact during the first three turns of a game starting on 22
June 1941 (11.4).

[...]
11.4. RAIL DAMAGE IN tHE BALtIC REGIoN
For the first four turns any rail hex in this region (Lithuania,
Latvia and Estonia) may be captured with the rail line
intact (note that rail yards will be damaged as normal as
they change hands). There is a 70% chance that such a rail
hex will not be damaged if it is captured in the movement
phase or when isolated hexes change ownership.
Note that any hex that is captured in a combat will be
damaged.

Funnily.....is it "first 3" or "first 4" turns?!

[HansBolter]

So on January 30th of 1944 an Event fires requiring me to increase my commitment to the Finish Theater Box.

The situation in the north is depicted below.

The fact that the Soviets haven't had land or sea access to that theater box for many months has had NO EFFECT on that "Event".

I'm forced to increase my commitment to fight an opponent that has no supply and no access to replacements or reinforcements.

Anyone who isn't capable of comprehending the inherent idiocy of this can't be in possession of much in the way of functional grey matter.

[Zovs]

See 13.3.5 errata, 13.1.6 errata. Also see page 230 errata and the note, I assume it applies here as well (i.e., will be reduced (but the relevant events will still occur).

Its all pretty obvious.

[chuckfourth]

Well thanks for nothing Zov. Instead of making out their is no problem by sending some very likely irrelevant quotes, maybe answer the question, IE the finnish box does not work properly and should be trashed. Talking about quotes you quoted Hans as saying something vile which he never actually said. That make you a troll. It's also clearly dishonest and the fact that a dishonest person such as yourself is a Beta tester for this game goes a long way to explaining why this game still struggles to remove the bias that is woven in at every opportunity to disadvantage the German player.

While I have your attention can the German player reach the historical rail repair locations in the game like in reality? you ignore the question, no doubt because he can't.

[RedBunny]

While I have your attention can the German player reach the historical rail repair locations in the game like in reality? you ignore the question, no doubt because he can't.

Why is this such a problem for you?

[chuckfourth]

This?