Soviet Rocket Launcher performance before 1944

[Wiedrock]

EDIT: "ROCKETS" do have an additional x0.2 for all factions, always, that's why I ended up with such low (2.4%) when comparing Soviet Rocket against German Artillery!
So the math was/is right but I did not know about the additional "Rocket"-modifier.

As K62 mentioned the performance of Katyushas in this post and I was before encountering other issues looking into their performance due to hints by him and FortTell and others in Discord I decided to finally get it done.

The following collage is a Editor screen from December 1941.
As pointed out in this Post and the whole Thread there are weirdly hidden Ammo Modifiers for Soviets in place, varying by time....and probably other factors.
Now my assumption was that for Rocket Artillery the same modifiers apply as for normal Artillery, but somehow this seem to not be the case.
As can be seen the Rocket Unit only has 2.4% of what a German Unit would have and also only 12% of what a Artillery Unit would have with 100Guns with 1504 Ammo Use per Gun.

So, somehow there is something "double-negatively-modifying" the Rocket Artillery. Once the negative Modifiers disappear in 1944, Rockets start to work normal. What I can tell is that the Modifiers disappear once you make the Ground Element in this TOE into an "Artillery" Ground type. So another hint where to look at in the code.
Therefore it'd be nice if Devs could investigate why this massively decreased Ammo numbers for Rocket Artillery seem to be the normal hidden Soviet "negative Ammo Modifiers" - squared.

[FortTell]

I can definitely say that Katushas underperform in combat, even when they have high XP, does not matter if attacking or defending. Here are two battles from 42, where three (not fully healthy) regiments have managed to land 1 (one) hit in two combats.

[Wiedrock]

Here are two battles from 42, where three (not fully healthy) regiments have managed to land 1 (one) hit in two combats.

In Summer 42 a Regiment (of my 100 Launcher TOEs) has a reqirement of 108Ammo. If I now change the Ground Element Type of the Launchers from "(84) Unarmored SP Rocket" to "(9) Artillery" this Ammo need increases to 514Ammo. So it is ~21% of what a Soviet Artillery would have.

[FortTell]

For comparison, another Katusha unit in an assault front shot and hit way more, even when fighting a very small enemy (a regiment). In other combats from that turn rocket regiments from an assault front had 5.09, 10.85, 10.40 FPE and 0.22, 0.14, 0.80 HPE.

[Denniss]

Just asking to be sure: german rocket units are not affected by this?

[Wiedrock]

Just asking to be sure: german rocket units are not affected by this?

No, only Soviets, you can even make those Rocket Launchers German and they perform well. They just underperform while they have all the hidden negative Soviet Ammo Modifiers active.
That's why their performance improves a bit when in an ASSAULT HQ, since this removes (most likely) the x0.6 Ammo Modifier (or however exactly those modifiers are combined ...depending on element types/time ...0.4x0.5x0.6 ...or different).

[Wiedrock]

Is this WAD or not?

[Joel Billings]

At this point it is. I don't think Gary could say at this point exactly what was intended when the code was originally written. Sounds harsh, but not sure at this point how to alter it or if we would be happy with the impact of a change.

[Joel Billings]

Pavel found the line of code that clearly treats rockets differently with regards to the ammo. It is divided by 5 compared to others. Many Soviet ground types also are reduced starting in 1941, with the reduction decreasing each year until 1944 when it goes away. This was put in the game so long ago that it's possible it was something from WitE1 (the task number indicates WitE1 or maybe very early WitE2 from 9 years ago). We don't know why Gary did it, but it is WAD. Now we may consider reducing the amount of the early war reduction on rockets, since the double penalizing does make it very tough for them. Something we may do as we make some of the other adjustments. Pavel found a line of code that treats mech infantry different from infantry, and removing that difference has the mech infantry firing as good as the regular infantry. So that looks like something we'll do in the future (this will also help cav squads since they are mech infantry type). In order for hit panzer grenadiers not to be more easily destroyed (as opposed to damaged/disrupted), we have to remove the armor from the data. The intention was for the armor to give some defensive benefit, but it appears that instead, the armor is just making it easier for these units to be destroyed. So down the road, you may see us making a data change to remove armor and a code change to get them to fire like infantry. Issues with Stg44s, SMG, LMG, HMGs are a different issue entirely, and not something we've looked into (yet). Having saves for those could help us, along with a brief recap of what you think you have found out. Thanks.

[Wiedrock]

Pavel found the line of code that clearly treats rockets differently with regards to the ammo. It is divided by 5 compared to others. Many Soviet ground types also are reduced starting in 1941, with the reduction decreasing each year until 1944 when it goes away. This was put in the game so long ago that it's possible it was something from WitE1 (the task number indicates WitE1 or maybe very early WitE2 from 9 years ago). We don't know why Gary did it, but it is WAD. Now we may consider reducing the amount of the early war reduction on rockets, since the double penalizing does make it very tough for them.

Thanks, yea I have found the "/5 or x0,2" for the Rockets just today (added it as EDIT in the initial Post already). That's something I'd not have guessed considering all Artillery the same (but it isn't, as Mortars (multiply types) are again treated differrently ), that's how I came to 2.4% of German Ammo a Artillery would have (but actually x0,2x0,6=12% of what a German Rocket-Artillery would have (in December/without ASSAULT). Working on a Post in my old Thread for Ammo already to at least have the normal Artillery clear.

I think it generally all makes sense how Gary did it, accounting for general amounts carried by units, issues the Soviets had with Ammo and how they generally handled Ammo requirements (more guns with less Ammo per gun, as compared to Germans who had less Guns with more Ammo) - and then annually the situation slowly improving.

The Rockets as you say it just all doubles, when their normal "/5 or x0,2" meets with the standard (Artillery/and others) Debuffs in 1941("x0,2") or 1942("x0,4") and then additionally with the Manual stated "60% or x0,6" (when not in an ASSAULT FRONT). Maybe they surpass (negatively) a treshold for performance when it all comes together...or so. Maybe just an errata for them to be mandatory in ASSAULT Fronts is needed!
They also benefit as other Artillery slightly from CPP (at least from few tests), but even with 100CPP against 0CPP Artillery they still only score like 10% or so in late 41 (attack against Fort 0 Clear terrain).

Pavel found a line of code that treats mech infantry different from infantry, and removing that difference has the mech infantry firing as good as the regular infantry. So that looks like something we'll do in the future (this will also help cav squads since they are mech infantry type). In order for hit panzer grenadiers not to be more easily destroyed (as opposed to damaged/disrupted), we have to remove the armor from the data. The intention was for the armor to give some defensive benefit, but it appears that instead, the armor is just making it easier for these units to be destroyed. So down the road, you may see us making a data change to remove armor and a code change to get them to fire like infantry.

How APCs/IFVs are supposed to perform/survivability is probably a debate to have, but since every nation which could/can affort it went/goes the route of mech infantry they should perform/survive better than regular infantry I'd say. But how to achieve that's up to the code.
...not sure if maybe adding a "dodge" chance to them (by checking their speed) may also work, this could then even be modded on the fly (e.g. 6mph vs 10 vs 15 vs 20 ...).

Issues with Stg44s, SMG, LMG, HMGs are a different issue entirely, and not something we've looked into (yet). Having saves for those could help us, along with a brief recap of what you think you have found out. Thanks.

I will reply in the other Thread in the next days. If it's always been like this since WitW or longer, not sure how much work in Coding it'd be (if possible at all). It may be possible to be fixed by the data guys I'd say by giving each Squad 5-12Men at least 4 (or 5) Device-slots filled with "main small arms" (e.g. SMG/Rifle/SARifle/LMG/StG).
Edit: And the "HMG-issue" is a "me-issue" about balance, nothing to worry about.