Produced tanks go into transit pool instead of active

[Stamb]

StB

On turn 1 there is no tanks in the transit pool.

1.png (146.07 KiB) Viewed 1615 times

on turn 15 i have 340 t-34 m1943 in the transit pool

2.png (12.27 KiB) Viewed 1615 times

on turn 16 i have 762 t-34 m1943 in the transit pool

3.png (10.81 KiB) Viewed 1615 times

there was similar issue that i and other players reported with a mortars and it was actually fixed
but it seems that at least tanks are bugged

please fix ALL elements in the production system

saves:

Saves.rar

(6.48 MiB) Downloaded 22 times

[Stamb]

turn 16, tanks in transit
no way it is possible if the system is not broken

4.png (121.03 KiB) Viewed 1612 times

[Joel Billings]

The only way to know for sure is to check what happens the first turn of production. I did that for the Pz IV-g and they were all active (and some went out immediately to units). So this appears to be working. I assume the stuff in the transit pool are vehicles that are damaged that return to the pool.

[Denniss]

Just loaded a GC41 save, first turn of 1943 and all 303 produced T-34 M43 are in active pool. one turn later some are in units but none in transfer
the more of them in units and the more of them active in combat the more of them you'll see damaged and sent back to repair

EDIT
In early 43 there OB upgrades for tank and mech Divs, possible Rgt/Bns too. Most/all of them specify the T-34 M1942. Depending on how the game engine handles this the M43 may be kicked out for M42

[Stamb]

I checked saves when t34 m1943 enters production and on the next turn and couple after it they all go into active
once they enter units - i summed up all tanks and it looks ok too

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I think these are damaged tanks being returned to the transit pool?

At the start of the scenario there are 1407 T34 1941s in units and 340 in the active pool. Lets say as a rough example that by the end of T10 50% of these are destroyed and the rest are damaged. So at that point there would be 874 damaged in units. Over the next 5 turns these would go as follows (damaged in units - transit pool - active pool/back in units)

656 - 218 - 0
492 - 327 - 55
369 - 423 - 82
275 - 493 - 106
207 - 544 - 123

That last 544 figure is pretty similar to what you have? Obviously this is a very imprecise example but it at least shows how the mechanic works.

[Stamb]

from Soviet t1 to t16 i have built:

medium tanks:
matilda II: 710 - 560 = 150
t-34 m1942: 8050 - 5950 = 2100
m3 lee: 1296 - 918 = 378
m4a2 sheman: 234
valentine III: 1775 - 1400 = 375
t-34 m1943: 2727


in total i have built
150 + 2100 + 378 + 234 + 375 + 2727 = 5,964 medium tanks

on top of that i had 2200 medium tanks in the active pool on t1

which gives 5,964 + 2200 = 8164 medium tanks that i can spend


my total losses of a medium tanks are:

2.png (68.57 KiB) Viewed 1530 times

matilda II: 82
t-34 m1941: 77
t-34 m1942: 1571
m3 lee: 30
valentine III: 48
t-34 m1943: 61

total losses: 1869 medium tanks


total built + active pool from t1 = 8164
minus total losses: 1869
gives: 6,295 medium tanks that i should have

but we are not counting damaged tanks here that also requires replacements. I have no idea how to count how many i lost due to damage over this 16 turns but i can show how many medium tanks are damaged on t16:

1.png (365.9 KiB) Viewed 1531 times

21 + 470 + 16 = 507

additionally i am not even counting tanks from the transit pool that are going to the active pool over time
so i really doubt that i was able to damage more than 6.3k medium tanks

question is, where did they all go?

also some additional stats:
on t1 there are 12,213 tanks of all types in total
on t16 there are 14,140 tanks of all types in total

[Stamb]

since i have 4333 medium tanks in transit pool and manual says:

At the start of each friendly logistics phase, 25 percent of the amount in the transit
pool is moved to the available pool

4333x0.25 = 1,083 additional tanks that should be added to an active pool every turn

there is no way i can lose so much, if we look that for 16 turns i lost only 1.9k
so two turns and only tanks from transit pool would cover my needs

[Joel Billings]

Sorry, it's hard to follow all your math, especially without saves. The best way to get to the bottom of this is to play perhaps 2 turns of a smaller scenario, keeping start of turn and pre-log saves. Maybe just moving at attacking with the side that you're watching and letting the other turn go by without action. Then start doing your comparisons to see if things add up. If someone wants to try that I'd be willing to look at the saves if there appears to be a discrepancy.

[Wiedrock]

Sorry, it's hard to follow all your math, especially without saves. The best way to get to the bottom of this is to play perhaps 2 turns of a smaller scenario, keeping start of turn and pre-log saves. Maybe just moving at attacking with the side that you're watching and letting the other turn go by without action. Then start doing your comparisons to see if things add up. If someone wants to try that I'd be willing to look at the saves if there appears to be a discrepancy.

I tested his saves, looked whether there were any M1942 or M1943 T-34 variants disappearing, but non were missing, all added up.
Then I tested where "replaced/upgraded" Tanks go. They directly went to the Active Pool, so no Transit visit there either.

So the only thing possible from what I see, is that, he got a lot of Damaged tanks going into Transit and somehow the 25% repair rate can't keep up (if it is 25% in every Scenario) with this influx of damaged tanks.
Or there is something else going on...

[Stamb]

Sorry, it's hard to follow all your math, especially without saves. The best way to get to the bottom of this is to play perhaps 2 turns of a smaller scenario, keeping start of turn and pre-log saves. Maybe just moving at attacking with the side that you're watching and letting the other turn go by without action. Then start doing your comparisons to see if things add up. If someone wants to try that I'd be willing to look at the saves if there appears to be a discrepancy.

saves were attached in the first post
T1 and T16 were used for my calculations

[Stamb]

i am sorry Joel, but i am not a scenario guy, i dont know how to create scenarios

but i have simple examples that show that there is something wrong or maybe WAD, but not documented, going on:
end of t16:

t16_2.png (9.43 KiB) Viewed 1464 times

2334 t34 m1942 in transfer

t16.png (10.09 KiB) Viewed 1464 times

3272 ready

start of t17:

t17_2.png (11.04 KiB) Viewed 1464 times

2244 in transfer

t17.png (10.88 KiB) Viewed 1464 times

3493 ready

ready t34 m1942 change is 3493 - 3272 = 216
but if manual is correct then i should get 2334 (from transit pool on t16) * 0.25 = 583 tanks

while i get only +216 to the units

and in an active pool i have only 32 tanks
rest are either left in the transit pool, which means that manual is not correct about 25% items transferred to an active pool or they are gone

[Stamb]

active pool for t17 (could not attach image to the previous post):

2.png (7.23 KiB) Viewed 1463 times

and SAVES:

saves.rar

(4.47 MiB) Downloaded 64 times

[Wiedrock]

26.1.1. Allocation of Losses to the Transit and Replacement Pools
First, 25 percent of all damaged ground elements (apart from AFV ground elements, see 26.1.4 below) from units are returned to the transit production and manpower pools to be made available to return as replacements.
However, only forty percent of the manpower from the damaged ground elements goes to the transit pool; the other sixty percent is placed in the disabled pool. All other things being equal, returning ground elements are more likely to be returned to their original units.
Damaged equipment, and manpower returned to the pool during the logistics phase are not available immediately to be used as replacements. Although they appear in the pool on the production screen, they actually are put in the transit pool.
At the start of each friendly logistics phase, 25 percent of the amount in the transit pool is moved to the available pool. This represents the lost time from the front of lightly wounded soldiers and damaged equipment.
When damaged ground elements are sent back to the pool, freight is placed in a nearby depot equal to one half of the freight tonnage of the ground element.
Elements that are returning to the pool do not pay any shipping/rail costs.

I feel like the 25% are not being repaired in his case?!

May this repair speed for AFV be unintentinally influenced by this special AFV-rule?!

26.1.4. AFV Ground Element Replacement Limitations and Equipment Losses
There are several special rules for AFV ground element replacements. The percentage of damaged AFV ground elements returned to the production pools varies based on the ground weather as follows:
• Clear – 22.5%
• Light Mud – 20%
• Heavy Mud – 10%
• Light Snow – 17.5%
• Snow – 15%
• Heavy Snow – 10%
In addition, there is a chance that the equipment from an AFV ground element (i.e. the ‘tank’, but not the manpower) will be destroyed rather than being returned to the pool. The chance that AFV equipment will be lost increases the further the unit is from a railhead.

[Joel Billings]

For me, the save I need is the pre-log save at the end of the Axis turn, and then the next Soviet start of turn save where you see some discrepency.

Are you accounting for what's going on in the TBs? Many displays don't include TBs, for example losses in TBs are not included in the main losses screen.

[Stamb]

we dont have Axis end of the turn saves, but, IIRC, there were 1-2 attacks from Axis side during that turns

here are saves at the start of Axis turn, turn 16 and 17, just skip air phase and hit end turn button
SAVES:

Axis saves.zip

(4.49 MiB) Downloaded 13 times

you have my Soviet save turn 16 and 17 saves too

i did not account for losses in TBs, will check them later

[Stamb]

Total losses in the TBs are roughly 50 medium tanks

[Joel Billings]

I advanced the German turn 16 and then looked at the Soviet turn 17. For the new stuff being produced, I found no missing tanks. I did see quite a few more T34 43s back in the transfer pool. I compared and found 6 less units with the tank than before. These were tanks in units that were calling for older tanks in their OBs. My guess is that as more old tanks go back to the pool these are now available to fill the units that want them as their first choice. These "downgraded" tanks may explain some of what is in the transfer pool, although not sure if Wiedrock has confirmed that these pulled out of units go to the active pool. From looking at new production as it rolls off the line, I'm convinced that they are going to the active pool. Without a more thorough audit I can't be sure what is happening, but I don't think it's new production. In a quick look at some older out of production tanks I did see some that seemed to have gone missing. I don't know if these are being scrapped prematurely, or if I missed something else going on, but the new tanks seem fine. Without a much narrower test with small values, and/or a lot of programmer time that we're unlikely to get from Pavel, I think we just accept this churn as part of the game's design.

[Wiedrock]

These "downgraded" tanks may explain some of what is in the transfer pool, although not sure if Wiedrock has confirmed that these pulled out of units go to the active pool.

1. I set Tiger -> King Tiger as Upgrade
2. I added 10,000 King Tigers to the Pool
3. I created a TOE requesting 200Tigers
4. the unit started with 200 Tigers on MAP
5. I set the Unit to Refit
6. I rolled 1 turn

[Wiedrock]

I've said nothing.... It seems to vary. Here the replaced M1941 seem to go to transit or so. No idea what is going on.

M1941 to Transit.png (281.52 KiB) Viewed 1343 times

Althought this is not an "official UPGRADE-Path", maybe that's influencing where replaced Tanks go....

UPGRADE.png (104.18 KiB) Viewed 1342 times