Functionality of "size (and speed)" as a Ground Element Detail

[Wiedrock]

I'd like to have some more info/clarification in the size (and if possible speed) of Ground Elements. Particularly which is supposed to influence own shots taken and which one is supposed to lower/increase chance of being hit. And to which Ground Element Types ...or classifications those numbers are applied to in combat and to which not (if that's the distincing factor).

Speed: Input the speed of the device in miles per hour (mph).
Size: Input the size of the device:
1=Infantry, MGs, mortars, light & medium artillery,
antitank & antiaircraft guns, etc.
2=heavy artillery, antitank & antiaircraft guns, etc.
3=light tanks, armoured cars, assault guns, heavy
artillery, etc.
4=Medium tanks, heavy artillery, etc.
5-10=heavy & super heavy tanks, heavy artillery,
siege guns & mortars, etc.

As a general info.

Speed: Relative ability of the ground element to manoeuvre. Used in combat computations.
Size: Relative size of the ground element. Used in combat computations.

[...]

Each ground element has attributes of speed, size and armour, which is zero for all ground elements except for AFV and other combat vehicles.

[...]

Ground elements that have successfully passed their checks will then fire their equipped
devices that are within range at an opposing ground element. The number of shots taken, the
ability to hit the target, and for AFV and combat vehicles where the target is hit, are dependent
on the same factors listed above as well as ground element speed, size, and the firing devices
accuracy, rate of fire, and blast radius against soft targets.

Ground elements that have successfully passed their
checks will then fire their equipped devices once they
are within range of an opposing ground element. The
chance to hit, and inflict damage and the number of shots
taken, is dependent on the factors listed above and issues
such as ground element speed, size, and the firing devices’
accuracy, rate of fire, and blast radius against soft targets.
For AFV and combat vehicles, additional factors apply such
as where they are hit.

In the first Test attached (big ppicture) I only changed the Ground Element size of the "51mm Pak", besides this both Pak are the same. What I would have expected is more "bigger" Pak being lost (since easier to be hit(?)). I've tested with size 3, 6, 10 and 50 and saw no difference. The same results I've seen with Tanks with changed sizes.

The other second test (small picture) I only give two battles (this time offensive performance), since those two reports encompass the results pretty well. The lost tanks (depending on size? speed?) did not change, as said before. What I'd have expected is the "fast" tank to do more shots/hits regularly, but it doesn't and over many battles it's still a back and forth (as in the larger test).

What works is changing the speed of the Pak, this makes the Pak with 25speed outperform the Pak with the usual 0 speed and this by quite some amount - regularly without exemptions (0→25speed increases hits/shots by ~x2-3). But when changing the Tanks from 25 to 55 doesn't seem to have an observable effect?!

As said, it would be nice to get some clarification which Ground Elements are affected by which of the two Ground Element Details (size & speed). Since at least for me it is not 100% clear to understand what has been written in the WITE2 Manual, since I don't see how your own "size" would impact the chance for you to hit the enemy would make any sense.

[Joel Billings]

I'll ask, but not sure how easy it will be to get an answer if Gary doesn't remember where these come into play.

[Joel Billings]

Gary thought that size was a factor in hitting AFVs, but couldn't remember what impact speed had in combat. Pavel looked at the code and came up with the info below (I don't read C so can't help you decipher this). I give this info with a caveat. Often parts of the code get rewritten, and old code is left in and just gone around. It's always possible that some of what Pavel found is in an area of code no longer functioning. I don't think that's the case, but you never know. I know in some logistics pieces, there's lots of old code that's been mostly disconnected. I think combat has less old code hanging around, so this may not be as much of an issue. Hopefully the info below helps.

From Pavel:
Looks like size indeed is used when targeting armored AVFs (armor > 0). Ground elements with bigger size are harder to hit/destroy:

AttackGroundHE (used in air attacks)
if(ah>sz*Die(5) && ah>arm*Die(5) && gUnit[tgt].sqd[s].num+gUnit[tgt].sqd[s].dam>0)

HitGroundAP
if (gUnit[tgt].sqd[s].num > 0 &&
(Random(br) > sz + Random(sz * 9) || Random(250 * sz) < pen || Random(20) < 1) &&
pen >= arm + Random(arm * mult) &&
gUnit[tgt].sqd[s].num > 0)
{

HitChanceAP (added to effective range calculations)
rg=rg*(4+sz)/8;


Speed also comes into play in various combat functions. Higher speed adds “protections” against various types of attack:

Ex.
HitChanceAP (provides fort value when fort level is 1 or less)

if(fort<2)
{
fort=gGround[gu].speed;
fort=1+RandomUnit(gu,fort);
fort=1+RandomUnit(gu,fort);
fort=1+RandomUnit(gu,fort);
fort=1+RandomUnit(gu,fort);


In other cases it just checks if speed is more than 0

AntiSoftFire

Can attack at higher range:

else if (rg < 601 && gUnit[fu].player != gScen.player &&
gGround[g].speed > 0 &&
Random(100) <= aexp &&
(Random(100) > dexp || Random(100) > gUnit.morale)) // COMBAT RANGE TEST ****************************************
{
av++;
av *= 2;
}
else if (rg < 501 && gUnit[fu].player == gScen.player &&
gGround[g].speed < 1 &&
Random(100) <= aexp &&
(Random(100) > dexp || Random(100) > gUnit.morale)) // COMBAT RANGE TEST ****************************************
{
av = 0;
}

Attack value reduction if speed is 0:
else if (av > 1 && gUnit[fu].player == gScen.player && gGround[g].speed < 1)
av /= 2;

AttackUnitHE
More elements can get hit by air attack when speed is 0:
else if (brg == 51 && gGround[gu].speed < 1)
tot = tot + (gn * 400);

[Wiedrock]

Thanks a lot. I either can't read it, but Pavels statements explain my issues to an extend.

Like "Ground elements with bigger size are harder to hit/destroy" - 180° contratry to how I would have guessed it would be.
And "In other cases it just checks if speed is more than 0" confirms to some extend my 0 vs =/= observations...some ..hopefully.

Thanks.

[Joel Billings]

Pavel confirmed today that larger size AFVs are harder to hit, not easier.

---- Sorry, the above is wrong, it's the reverse, larger is easier to hit.

[MechFO]

Pavel confirmed today that larger size AFVs are harder to hit, not easier.

Going through the Ground Elements, this is certainly backward from the understanding of who input the sizes.

Easier to change all Element entries or easier to change the code?

[Wiedrock]

Pavel confirmed today that larger size AFVs are harder to hit, not easier.

Yep, thanks for following up. I tested already and I think they also shoot better, altough their shooting may also be influenced by not being hit as easy.

Pavel confirmed today that larger size AFVs are harder to hit, not easier.

Going through the Ground Elements, this is certainly backward from the understanding of who input the sizes.

Easier to change all Element entries or easier to change the code?

Not sure what you mean, It's just the size, big things have big numbers and small things have small numbers (I guess Squads may be special)?!
WITW Editor says:

Speed: Input the speed of the device in miles per hour
(mph).
Size: Input the size of the device:
1=Infantry, MGs, mortars, light & medium artillery,
antitank & antiaircraft guns, etc.
2=heavy artillery, antitank & antiaircraft guns, etc.
3=light tanks, armoured cars, assault guns, heavy
artillery, etc.
4=Medium tanks, heavy artillery, etc.
5-10=heavy & super heavy tanks, heavy artillery,
siege guns & mortars, etc.

I did not test everything, but to me it seems that size only impacts getting hit (and shooting) for Tanks (not sure what else, maybe everything that got any armor. Rifle Squads, (regular) Artillery and (regular) AT-Guns I found no changes at all when changing sizes....I hope

[MechFO]

Pavel confirmed today that larger size AFVs are harder to hit, not easier.

Yep, thanks for following up. I tested already and I think they also shoot better, altough their shooting may also be influenced by not being hit as easy.

Pavel confirmed today that larger size AFVs are harder to hit, not easier.

Going through the Ground Elements, this is certainly backward from the understanding of who input the sizes.

Easier to change all Element entries or easier to change the code?

Not sure what you mean, It's just the size, big things have big numbers and small things have small numbers (I guess Squads may be special)?!
WITW Editor says:

Speed: Input the speed of the device in miles per hour
(mph).
Size: Input the size of the device:
1=Infantry, MGs, mortars, light & medium artillery,
antitank & antiaircraft guns, etc.
2=heavy artillery, antitank & antiaircraft guns, etc.
3=light tanks, armoured cars, assault guns, heavy
artillery, etc.
4=Medium tanks, heavy artillery, etc.
5-10=heavy & super heavy tanks, heavy artillery,
siege guns & mortars, etc.

I did not test everything, but to me it seems that size only impacts getting hit (and shooting) for Tanks (not sure what else, maybe everything that got any armor. Rifle Squads, (regular) Artillery and (regular) AT-Guns I found no changes at all when changing sizes....I hope

AttackGroundHE (used in air attacks)
if(ah>sz*Die(5) &

If I understand it correctly size does matter for air attacks on all ground elements. Aside from that you are correct it only influences AP attacks.

EDIT: As Panzer Grenadier/Pionier squads have size 1 and count as AP target they are certainly affected by the AP routine as well.

[Joel Billings]

Sorry, I screwed that up again. I meant to say that Pavel confirmed that larger sized AFVs are easier to hit. Sorry about all the confusion.

[Wiedrock]

If I understand it correctly size does matter for air attacks on all ground elements. Aside from that you are correct it only influences AP attacks.

EDIT: As Panzer Grenadier/Pionier squads have size 1 and count as AP target they are certainly affected by the AP routine as well.

So there may be a difference between Air2Ground vs Ground2Ground (AP) attacks, right?

The attached results, I only changed the tank sizes to what numbers are shown. Scenario attached.

[Joel Billings]

Can't speak to how air to ground is different than ground fighting, it's possible they are different.

[MechFO]

If I understand it correctly size does matter for air attacks on all ground elements. Aside from that you are correct it only influences AP attacks.

EDIT: As Panzer Grenadier/Pionier squads have size 1 and count as AP target they are certainly affected by the AP routine as well.

So there may be a difference between Air2Ground vs Ground2Ground (AP) attacks, right?

The attached results, I only changed the tank sizes to what numbers are shown. Scenario attached.

I don't see a seperate routine for Air to Ground (AP), so either there isn't one or it uses normal AP routine.


Those results do look like size plays an inverse role in some way.... only what may be throwing results off is the lopsided numbers on the German side. Maybe the German tanks are dead before the 600 size T34 get attacked.