Italian Alpini

[Wiedrock]

Since the Italian Alpini have become a meme with their 600 Support Squads and ~82% Manpower in Support Squads, AlbertN was interested taking a deeper look into this. Me as a German obviously wanted to help my Italian allie, so we dug.
Best Source we could find was this:

Italy-Infantry.pdf

(3.66 MiB) Downloaded 23 times

Alpini Divisions '41:

• Rifle Squad size (14men formed one squad)
• Scout/Recon Section is missing

Changes needed:

• Creation of a new Rifle Squad type "alpini" of 14men
  >>>162Squads*4Men=648Men
• Creation of a new Recon Squad (may be Ski) 16men
  >>> 16Men*3Co*3Bat*2Reg=288Men -> 288/16=18Squads

Note that generally I guess everyone back then had a gun, but if the Devs feel uncomfortable to give the guy with the Mule a gun you could just simply add him to the Squad (which he directly belonged to) without adding a gun, that's still way better and more realistic than making him a Support element.

---

Alpini Divisions '42:

• Seems like overall Squad Structure remained the same. (see Division '41).
• Before there were only Engineers and Signal "mixed" in a Divisional assignment. Those are present in both TOEs 41+42 in game and stayed like this in all the TOEs. But each Battalion received a additional Engineering Platoon and Signal Platoon.
• The Three Alpini sent to Russia may have had only 8 Guns caliber 105 each.

Changes needed:

• - see all of '41
  >>>648Men+288Men=936Men
• - addition of more Engineering Squads
  >>>2Reg*3Bat*69Men = 414Men -> 414/11=37.64Squads
• Removing 4 Guns (105)
  >>>(-1)*4Guns*8Men=-32Men

Note that there may be a difference between the initially intended assignment of 12 Guns versus what was available (only 24), I don't know for sure how it all ended up, would be nice to know if someone has further insights.

---

When applying those changes this would change:
Alpini Divisions '41:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14355=83.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288)/20=553.2SupportSquads ->553.2*20/14355=77.1% of Manpower

Alpini Divisions '42:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14703=81.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288+414-32)/20=534.1SupportSquads -> 534.1*20/14703=72.7% of Manpower

Would be nice to have those changes applied, if not 100% at least at a scale which other (better(?)) sources make possible which I don't have access to.

Alpini1.png (602.96 KiB) Viewed 425 times

[AlbertN]

In the mod I am making I've set the Scout Squads as 8 men (no LMG, 1 carabine and 7 rifles and the hand grenade) and made them Ski Squad as type of element. So 36 squads instead of 18.
The Rifle Squads are 13 men, and added 3 rifles to it.
Added 7 Assault Engineer Squads.

Lowered relative fuel consumption since they have packmules instead of trucks.

Now - as documented in that file there are possibly more weapons and soldiers, but they're tied to the Divisional HQ or logistical assets - that have a 1-2 HMG or the like for local defense, etc.
I take that's bundled in Support in general - and surely it is personnel well behind the combat lines when things go well.
But when the enemy 'breaches' your line and start to rampage ... things change rapidly!

[Wiedrock]

Added 7 Assault Engineer Squads.

That's missing +30 Squads (or however you want to count the 69 men in the Platoon).

[AlbertN]

I blame me doing things at silly o'clock in the night...

I made of that the total of the division, I ought to recompute.

On the other hand I am not changing the guns - because I feel it can be very fitting that 'on the paper' you should have 12. You may simply not get 12 because they're not there / produced too slowly.

[Wiedrock]

Making some of the Engineers into "Labor Squad" like Soviet Sappers may also be an idea. One needs to find the exact composition/equipment of such a Platoon inside an Alpini Battalion.

[Wiedrock]

1 new TOE.
2 existing TOEs.
2 new Alpini Squads. (are Ground Element Type 118 Mountain Squad [NEW])
2 new Alpini Scout Squads.

The added Labor Squads are a mix of the newly added Pioneer Platoons and Pioneers of the Artillery Division - so a compromise to not make too many new "Assault" Engineer Squads.

If you find errors or have forther infos, let me know.

[MechFO]

Since the Italian Alpini have become a meme with their 600 Support Squads and ~82% Manpower in Support Squads, AlbertN was interested taking a deeper look into this. Me as a German obviously wanted to help my Italian allie, so we dug.
Best Source we could find was this:
Italy-Infantry.pdf


Alpini Divisions '41:

• Rifle Squad size (14men formed one squad)
• Scout/Recon Section is missing

Changes needed:

• Creation of a new Rifle Squad type "alpini" of 14men
  >>>162Squads*4Men=648Men
• Creation of a new Recon Squad (may be Ski) 16men
  >>> 16Men*3Co*3Bat*2Reg=288Men -> 288/16=18Squads

Note that generally I guess everyone back then had a gun, but if the Devs feel uncomfortable to give the guy with the Mule a gun you could just simply add him to the Squad (which he directly belonged to) without adding a gun, that's still way better and more realistic than making him a Support element.

---

Alpini Divisions '42:

• Seems like overall Squad Structure remained the same. (see Division '41).
• Before there were only Engineers and Signal "mixed" in a Divisional assignment. Those are present in both TOEs 41+42 in game and stayed like this in all the TOEs. But each Battalion received a additional Engineering Platoon and Signal Platoon.
• The Three Alpini sent to Russia may have had only 8 Guns caliber 105 each.

Changes needed:

• - see all of '41
  >>>648Men+288Men=936Men
• - addition of more Engineering Squads
  >>>2Reg*3Bat*69Men = 414Men -> 414/11=37.64Squads
• Removing 4 Guns (105)
  >>>(-1)*4Guns*8Men=-32Men

Note that there may be a difference between the initially intended assignment of 12 Guns versus what was available (only 24), I don't know for sure how it all ended up, would be nice to know if someone has further insights.

---

When applying those changes this would change:
Alpini Divisions '41:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14355=83.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288)/20=553.2SupportSquads ->553.2*20/14355=77.1% of Manpower

Alpini Divisions '42:
from: 600SupportSquads (600*20/14703=81.6% of Manpower)
to: 600-(648+288+414-32)/20=534.1SupportSquads -> 534.1*20/14703=72.7% of Manpower

Would be nice to have those changes applied, if not 100% at least at a scale which other (better(?)) sources make possible which I don't have access to.

Alpini1.png

At least in this very detailed German 1940 handbook on the Italian army, each company also had an Engineer section.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4

The other sections of the handbook

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p5154106

Checking some man counts, there are quite a few differences. Where does your table come from?

Just noticed the above is from 1937.

[Wiedrock]

Where does your table come from?

See the initial post, there is a pdf attached after the first paragraph.

each company also had an Engineer section.

I see, you can compare it with page 81 of the pdf.

At least in this very detailed German 1940 handbook on the Italian army,
[...]
Just noticed the above is from 1937.

I am at Tablet right now and looking throuh GDiR is a pain. If I get it right, the Handbook (all 3 parts which you have found) is all peacetime 1937?

[MechFO]

I am at Tablet right now and looking throuh GDiR is a pain. If I get it right, the Handbook (all 3 parts which you have found) is all peacetime 1937?

Yes.

Excellent resource, thank you for posting it.

I've done various cross checks for 1938 but nothing agrees. I assumed the Germans would have accurate information on the Italians but maybe not.

[Denniss]

At best any OB change should be made using existing equipment, especially squad types.

[Wiedrock]

Updated this Post with added Squad pictures and changed manpower of the initial TOE (OB:1755) to 14777 [571 Support now] (see source in first post page 83 which gives 14786men for 1940 TOE).