Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

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Wiedrock
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Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Wiedrock »

An Errata on the Grenadier/Volksgrenadier Divisional TOEs.

A short historical TLDR with some simplifications/generalizations.

There were multiple Sperrdivision (literal: blocking divisions) created, they were the 29th "Wave" of German mobilization.
Those were pretty quickly renamed into Grenadierdivision.
Added to those some Units from 30th wave also were/became a Grenadierdivision.
Later on about all of them became Volksgrenadier Divisions and changed to the TOE of the 32th Wave which was the mobilization Wave for the Volksgrenadier Divisions.
The 31st Wave (somewhat "makeshift Divisions") Divisions largely directly became Volksgrenadier.
The 32nd wave finally was the mobilization of the Volksgrenadier Divisions.

Currently in game we have these three TOEs.
Grenadier_current-TOEs.png
Grenadier_current-TOEs.png (234.96 KiB) Viewed 329 times
The leftmost TOE is not used (at least in GC41), the other two are the commonly used ones.

About the TOEs.
The main difference bewteen the two Volksgrenadier TOEs is the change of the SMG Squads to Sturm Squad. That this is unnecessary I've pointed out here, the "MP" in the following TOEs are meant to be MP44 = StG44 Platoons (Zg./Zge. = Züge = Platoons).
The other change is the increase of Panzerschreck Squads. As usual for both TOEs this number is too low, as before highlighted in this Post.
Additionally the usage of SP Flak, as mentioned in this Thread in too many Infantry Divisional TOEs (without it being able to be substituted by normal AA) - in other instances an SP Flak may be an "option", but in case of the Grenadier and Volksgrenadier it is pretty clear to not be an SP Flak.
And Finally, a similar issue as pointed out in this Thread, the Regimental Pionier Squads are too few.
Welle 29+32.png
Welle 29+32.png (4.14 MiB) Viewed 329 times
So basically one of the Volksgrenadier TOEs is not rly needed. The earlier units all used/were built using the 29th Welle TOE "Sperr/Grenadier" and the Volksgrenadier Divisional TOE was only established around 09/1944. The order to convert all the Grenadier Divisions to Volksgrenadie Divisions was given on 09.09.1944 (the actual renamings happened later).
I will add some more important documents in a second post.
VGD_Manpower.png
VGD_Manpower.png (915.66 KiB) Viewed 329 times
About the Manpower:
As often numbers varied slightly througout by minor adjustments here&there or depending on what accountant made the calculation :P .
The Grenadier Division TOE never had a proper field replacement battalion. The Volksgrenadier Division TOE was similarly planned that way with only a small training school. So from scratch both were not to be equipped with a "field replacement battalion", instead they usually only got to get a "Divisions Kampfschule" as mentioned.
It is possible that some VGDs later on managed to establish a proper replacement battalion (probably with smaller size) but I don't know which amount of Divisions did.
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Wiedrock »

Attached are 4 things.
  1. 29+30Welle stuff
    • 10.Jul.44: creation 29.Welle (Grenadier Divisions)
    • 9.Sep.44: order for 29+30.Welle to become 32.Welle TOEs
    • renaming of 29+30.Welle to Volksgrenadier
  2. 29+30+31+32.Welle overview
    • 16.Aug.44: Overview about all 4 Wellen/Waves (32. only planned so far)
      Contains handwritten notes to 29+30.Welle that "all have been renamed to Volksgrenadier Division"
  3. creation of Volksgrenadier Divisions
    • 23.Aug.44: request to form 25 Divisions + (final) determination the name to be "Volks-Grenadier-Division"
  4. standing on mobilization of 32.Welle
    • 15.Sep.44: Update on the current state ob mobilizing 32.Welle (Volksgrenadier Divisions)
Concerning the game, all applicable Divisions of Waves 29+30+(31) before 09/1944 should definitely be called Grenadier Divsions (and use the approriate TOE shown before).
The newly formed 32.Welle Volksgrenadier Divisions starting 09/1944 should directly be mobilized with the latest/final TOE (the one shown before - no second one necessary (unless one wants to have some variance)).
The renaming and change in TOE of the 29+30.Welle seems to have been "delayed". I did not look into each individual Division and when the perfect time may be to rename it.
I am not sure what happens if you use 07/1944-09/1944 for the Grenadier and 09/1944-end for the Volksgrenadier TOE and make it a direct upgrade, maybe the first few may already be renamed in 09/1944? Or earliest 10/1944....not sure, both would be alright I suppose.
Attachments
29-30 Welle creation-renaming.png
29-30 Welle creation-renaming.png (2.1 MiB) Viewed 315 times
Overview 29-32 Welle.png
Overview 29-32 Welle.png (2.05 MiB) Viewed 315 times
32 Welle Aufstellung.png
32 Welle Aufstellung.png (1.5 MiB) Viewed 315 times
32 Welle Aufstellung_Stand.png
32 Welle Aufstellung_Stand.png (947.79 KiB) Viewed 315 times
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Wiedrock
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Wiedrock »

And as always, I don't claim 100% correctness, If you have other infos, let me know!
If you find issues, let me know.
If you want those documents and many more (there are ~160 documents ragarding 29-32.Welle Divisions I have) PM me.
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Wiedrock
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Wiedrock »

Further Info regarding the Squads.
The TOEs may need 3 different Infantry Squad types, similar to how done here. Due to 3 Different Squad types per Company.

08.07.1944: Sperr Version. Calculations of the Sperr/Grenadier Division used several different KSTNs over time. This is one "Sp = Sperr" was dedicated for them - the 1 MP Platoon in the "Gliederung" indicates that it was the intended KSTN to be used I'd assume.
01.09.1944: Version 1, the Rifle grenades are part of the 3rd Squad of the 3rd Platoon. So all Squads = 9 Men Squads.
01.11.1944: Version 2, the Rifle grenades have been outsourced into platoon HQ. What was designed to make the Company better, makes it worse in game. (Squads = only 8 Men), losing more than 100 Men and Rifle grenades to become "Support"?! :?
Attachments
Sturm.png
Sturm.png (209.36 KiB) Viewed 301 times
Denniss
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Denniss »

We need the 44/45 VG Div slots as many Infantry Divs have renames sheduled to one of them in case they are depleted. We don't really need the Sperrdivision slot (dont know if that is used at all in any scenario).
Field replacement Bn is listed as 925 men (KStN 125a April 1944), Kampfschule as 54 men (KStN 125b April 1944) so thats indeed a major difference.
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Denniss »

I'd call the VG Div org of mid 44 fluid, by 9 September 44 strenght was supposed to be 11197/10326
https://11547dbae310663707.temporary.li ... rength.pdf
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Denniss »

BTW the Sperrdiv should use JPz 38 to match the linup in VGD 45, avoiding an element type change.
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Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by Wiedrock »

Denniss wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 11:32 pm
Denniss wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 10:19 pm Field replacement Bn is listed as 925 men (KStN 125a April 1944), Kampfschule as 54 men (KStN 125b April 1944) so thats indeed a major difference.
I'd call the VG Div org of mid 44 fluid, by 9 September 44 strenght was supposed to be 11197/10326
https://11547dbae310663707.temporary.li ... rength.pdf
I think I've found the reasons for the different calculations.
The largest difference is the Field Replacement part. (you highlighted the numbers)
Next difference is the Artillery, some calculations were wrongfully made with using the le.Art.Abt. (2x6guns) an additional time instead of using the le.Feld.Kan.Abt. (3x6guns), the latter having 136Men more (~10326 vs ~10175).
Another one is +57Men when one Battalion was cyclist, which seems to have been overlooked/not calculated in some numbers.
The smallest one is if they included all the supply column changes, new KSTNs (as of 01.09.1944) and other small amendments.

From my calculations the "best", including new KSTNs and amendments would be:
with Field Replacement: 11184
with Div.Kampfschule: 10313
...which is essentially the numbers you've shown.
Difference to your numbers comes from
2x-2Men le.Art.Abt.
1x-2Men s.Art.Abt.
1x-2Men le.Feld.Kan.Abt.
-3Men Supply troops
...almost, missing 2Men...grr :D

So it comes down to the Field Replacement yes/no. One could use your 10326-54+(925/2)=10734.5=10734Men as a middleground.
Denniss wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 10:19 pm We need the 44/45 VG Div slots as many Infantry Divs have renames sheduled to one of them in case they are depleted. We don't really need the Sperrdivision slot (dont know if that is used at all in any scenario).
How I'd handle it, I try to keep it short...
  1. Wiedrock wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 9:56 pm 08.07.1944: Sperr Version. Calculations of the Sperr/Grenadier Division used several different KSTNs over time. This is one "Sp = Sperr" was dedicated for them - the 1 MP Platoon in the "Gliederung" indicates that it was the intended KSTN to be used I'd assume.
    The shown TOE was supposed to replace the K98 with "MP(44)". This is also indicated by the fact that the equipment of the Divisionskampfschule contained 30xMP44 (BArch RH 2/1108 pic 286).
    It does not make sense to rly add another Squad for the earlier TOE, the SMG Squad is off, that's for sure and equally doesn't make sense switching around.
    The Sturm Squads (both) should therefore be made available earlier (07/1944).
    → It's not perfect since they also changed from 9→8Men but it is what it is.
  2. The renames, bound to DEPLETED status and so on can stay, after depletion it takes a while anyways to be rebuilt, so it's fine to directly go to the actual "VGD" TOE (with 2 MP Platoons per Company) and VGD naming (altough not 100% correct.
  3. I'd argue that the newly created Units of waves 29+30 (IDs: 3248[560.], 1699-1712[541.-563.]) should use the initial "Sperr TOE" (which should be renamed "Grenadier Division") with one MP(44) Platoon, until they were historically renamed (all in 10/1944 except the 560. which was renamed already on 18.09. but to keep it simple, the TOE should have a start 07/1944 and end 09/1944 and it Upgrades to the first VGD TOE.
  4. The two VGD TOEs are exactly the same, except the Pioneer Upgrade.
historic timeline
10.07. order to form 15 Sperr-Div.
17.07. rename Sperr → Grenadier Division
23.08. order to form 25 new Divisions 32nd Wave, name for 32nd Wave determined to be "Volks-Grenadier-Division"
09.09 final TOE for 29th Wave determined to be like 32nd Wave
18.09 rename of 560. to VGD
09.10 rename of most of 29.+30. wave to VGD (560. already renamed)

WOTE Changes:
  • Ground Elements
    G:478 "Sturm Squad"
    → change start date to 07/1944
    G:83 "Sturm Squad (-)"
    → change start date to 07/1944
  • TOE(OB)
    OB:478
    → adjust Rifle Squads (see attachment)
    → increase Panzerscherck to 162 (the 108 is for the Sperr-TOE)
    → manpower
    OB:479
    → adjust Rifle Squads (see attachment)
    → manpower
    OB:481 "[44] [Grenadier Sperr Division]"
    → rename [44 Sperr] [Grenadier Division]
    → set start date 07/1944
    → set end date 09/1944
    → set Upgrade to 478
    → adjust Rifle Squads (see attachment)
    → manpower
  • Units
    ALL: set starting OB:481
    U:1699
    U:1700
    U:1701
    U:1702
    U:1703
    U:1704
    U:1705
    U:1706
    U:1707
    U:1708
    U:1709
    U:1710
    U:1711
    U:1712
    U:3248 (Norway)
  • Unit Insignias/Symbols
    Add renamed copies.
Attachments
WOTE_VGD_Units-Grenadier.jpg
WOTE_VGD_Units-Grenadier.jpg (66.86 KiB) Viewed 69 times
WOTE_VGD_TOE_v1.jpg
WOTE_VGD_TOE_v1.jpg (229.25 KiB) Viewed 69 times
MechFO
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:06 am

Re: Grenadier and Volksgrenadier Divisions [OB:481, OB:478, OB:479]

Post by MechFO »

Wiedrock wrote: Sat May 10, 2025 6:33 pm
Denniss wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 11:32 pm
Denniss wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 10:19 pm Field replacement Bn is listed as 925 men (KStN 125a April 1944), Kampfschule as 54 men (KStN 125b April 1944) so thats indeed a major difference.
I'd call the VG Div org of mid 44 fluid, by 9 September 44 strenght was supposed to be 11197/10326
https://11547dbae310663707.temporary.li ... rength.pdf
I think I've found the reasons for the different calculations.
The largest difference is the Field Replacement part. (you highlighted the numbers)
Next difference is the Artillery, some calculations were wrongfully made with using the le.Art.Abt. (2x6guns) an additional time instead of using the le.Feld.Kan.Abt. (3x6guns), the latter having 136Men more (~10326 vs ~10175).
Another one is +57Men when one Battalion was cyclist, which seems to have been overlooked/not calculated in some numbers.
The smallest one is if they included all the supply column changes, new KSTNs (as of 01.09.1944) and other small amendments.

From my calculations the "best", including new KSTNs and amendments would be:
with Field Replacement: 11184
with Div.Kampfschule: 10313
...which is essentially the numbers you've shown.
Difference to your numbers comes from
2x-2Men le.Art.Abt.
1x-2Men s.Art.Abt.
1x-2Men le.Feld.Kan.Abt.
-3Men Supply troops
...almost, missing 2Men...grr :D

So it comes down to the Field Replacement yes/no. One could use your 10326-54+(925/2)=10734.5=10734Men as a middleground.
Denniss wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 10:19 pm We need the 44/45 VG Div slots as many Infantry Divs have renames sheduled to one of them in case they are depleted. We don't really need the Sperrdivision slot (dont know if that is used at all in any scenario).
How I'd handle it, I try to keep it short...
  1. Wiedrock wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 9:56 pm 08.07.1944: Sperr Version. Calculations of the Sperr/Grenadier Division used several different KSTNs over time. This is one "Sp = Sperr" was dedicated for them - the 1 MP Platoon in the "Gliederung" indicates that it was the intended KSTN to be used I'd assume.
    The shown TOE was supposed to replace the K98 with "MP(44)". This is also indicated by the fact that the equipment of the Divisionskampfschule contained 30xMP44 (BArch RH 2/1108 pic 286).
    It does not make sense to rly add another Squad for the earlier TOE, the SMG Squad is off, that's for sure and equally doesn't make sense switching around.
    The Sturm Squads (both) should therefore be made available earlier (07/1944).
    → It's not perfect since they also changed from 9→8Men but it is what it is.
  2. The renames, bound to DEPLETED status and so on can stay, after depletion it takes a while anyways to be rebuilt, so it's fine to directly go to the actual "VGD" TOE (with 2 MP Platoons per Company) and VGD naming (altough not 100% correct.
  3. I'd argue that the newly created Units of waves 29+30 (IDs: 3248[560.], 1699-1712[541.-563.]) should use the initial "Sperr TOE" (which should be renamed "Grenadier Division") with one MP(44) Platoon, until they were historically renamed (all in 10/1944 except the 560. which was renamed already on 18.09. but to keep it simple, the TOE should have a start 07/1944 and end 09/1944 and it Upgrades to the first VGD TOE.
  4. The two VGD TOEs are exactly the same, except the Pioneer Upgrade.
historic timeline
10.07. order to form 15 Sperr-Div.
17.07. rename Sperr → Grenadier Division
23.08. order to form 25 new Divisions 32nd Wave, name for 32nd Wave determined to be "Volks-Grenadier-Division"
09.09 final TOE for 29th Wave determined to be like 32nd Wave
18.09 rename of 560. to VGD
09.10 rename of most of 29.+30. wave to VGD (560. already renamed)

WOTE Changes:
  • Ground Elements
    G:478 "Sturm Squad"
    → change start date to 07/1944
    G:83 "Sturm Squad (-)"
    → change start date to 07/1944
  • TOE(OB)
    OB:478
    → adjust Rifle Squads (see attachment)
    → increase Panzerscherck to 162 (the 108 is for the Sperr-TOE)
    → manpower
    OB:479
    → adjust Rifle Squads (see attachment)
    → manpower
    OB:481 "[44] [Grenadier Sperr Division]"
    → rename [44 Sperr] [Grenadier Division]
    → set start date 07/1944
    → set end date 09/1944
    → set Upgrade to 478
    → adjust Rifle Squads (see attachment)
    → manpower
  • Units
    ALL: set starting OB:481
    U:1699
    U:1700
    U:1701
    U:1702
    U:1703
    U:1704
    U:1705
    U:1706
    U:1707
    U:1708
    U:1709
    U:1710
    U:1711
    U:1712
    U:3248 (Norway)
  • Unit Insignias/Symbols
    Add renamed copies.
Makes sense.

29. Well Gliederung so it's in one place

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
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