DShK Production Quantities

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DrHiramTemple
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DShK Production Quantities

Post by DrHiramTemple »

I've always found it a bit odd/annoying how few aamgs the soviets produce relative to its presence in TOEs. Especially in the late war, it seems wild that the soviets re-add them to rifle divisions and up numbers elsewhere when they're so chronically short in supply.

Now Wikipedia (among others) gives an approx wartime production of 9000, which roughly lines up with the in-game value of 40 a week (giving about 8000 in the historical time-frame) but i have yet to find a proper primary or academic source for this number, and I'm increasingly convinced that this number must be under the historical production value.

i have yet to find any hard production numbers, but here's what i've pieced together--

The book Soviet Cannon gives the following totals for DShKs in use:

Code: Select all

start 1942-----720
mid 1942-------1947
1943-----------5218
start 1944-----8442
  
(i'm admittedly not sure off hand if these represent all guns on-hand or just those on the eastern front, though it should be fine either way for our estimatations regarding the game)

These numbers would mean at least 7700 guns were produced in the 2 year period from 42 through 43. To give a massively conservative extrapolation, let's ignore losses and any 1941 production. With 16 months to go, assuming a conistent production rate, we get an additional 5100 guns, for a total of 12800. Now I suppose you could claim that, assuming late war production did not expand, a lot of those 44 and 45 guns went to IS2s and ISU152s, bringing the total back to around 9k. But that still ignores losses and 1941 production, so i think it's safe to say that this book heavily suggests a larger production total than currently in game.

next up, I stumbled upon a blog post on topwar .eu that claims the soviets lost around 10,000 "heavy machine guns" during the war, representing 21% of total production. This gives an eye-watering total of 47,600 DShKs produced, which feels... optimistic compared to any other number i've dug up (the dshk was the only large-caliber mg produced by the soviets in quantity afaik, and maxim production completely dwarfs this number, so it can't be a combination of those two). Let's just call that an upper bound.

The only primary source i've come across is a series of monthly production plans for artillery and small arms on the Russian presidential library website. I gather these are production goals rather than actual production quantites, so i wasn't too sure how optimistic these figures are compared to reality. Here i've compiled a series of monthly goals for the DShKs alongside the 37 mm AA gun and the 122 mm m-30 howitzer, to provide a comparison against a couple of other guns that were produced throughout the war. unfortunately, the archive doesnt seem to have any monthly plans past july of 1943, but here's what i have so far:

Code: Select all

	12.7 mm   % of     37 mm   % of     122 mm  % of 
                  in-game          in-game           in-game   
In-Game  172               322             322	
Jan-42   175      102%     250     78%	   320     99%
Apr-42   500      291%     260     81%	   330     102%
Jul-42   700      407%     330     102%	   400     124%
Jan-43   1100     640%     430     134%	   420     130%
Jul-43   1250     727%     475     148%	   440     137%
The 37 mm and 122 mm both show their production goals increasing steadily, but still within a reasonable distance of the full-war average used in-game. on the other hand, the DShK expands dramatically beyond the in-game average over this period-- if those 1943 numbers even remotely reflect actual production numbers, 1943 alone saw more DShKs produced than what is commonly claimed online or in-game.

Once again, it's not impossible that the Soviets were just really optimistic with regards to their production figures, but that doesn't feel super likely to me given the figures for other weapons and the repeated increases over time.

And lastly, from a logical point of view: the Soviets were happy to remove DShKs from the rifle divisions early on when production and stocks were still low-- why would they bother adding them back to a TOE that they knew they could never dream of filling out? Either Stavka was wildly over-optimistic about production of this one specific gun, or production did in fact ramp up (or the listed TOEs are wrong i suppose).

Overall, while i can't really estimate a new value for in-game production at the moment, i feel fairly convinced that the current number is too low.

Otherwise, is there something obvious i'm missing? The smoking gun, of course, would be some actual primary-source production figures, and if anyone has some leads on that or any other relevant sources, i would be happy to see my claims confirmed or disproved!
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

Yep, I also found them being somewhat rare (in game). I assumed it may be related to how they are treated as targets (getting more hit then other AA-Artillery).

When looking at AA TOEs, I also found that the Soviets even added (according to some TOEs) many more DShK in 1944 to their AA-Division's 85mm AA Regiments (4->16 DShK), which is the same as your TOE examples.

One thing you may/must be cautious is the "heavy MG" terminologies, often in russian sources regarding AA Units the DShKas are named as "large caliber MGs". So not Heavy MGs, so if someone names Heavy MGs it's always the question what is actually meant by this.
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

Not sure how Elements are treated to be repaired(or not),...maybe this has something to do too?

Some Lend Lease Large caliber MGs may be missing, but not sure if in amounts that'd make up for whats observed in game.
DrHiramTemple
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by DrHiramTemple »

Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:15 pm

One thing you may/must be cautious is the "heavy MG" terminologies, often in russian sources regarding AA Units the DShKas are named as "large caliber MGs". So not Heavy MGs, so if someone names Heavy MGs it's always the question what is actually meant by this.
thanks, i'll have to bear that in mind. The sources i found so far were all specifically writing about the DShK, but the topwar source very well could have been referencing a figure they shouldn't have (it would explain why their number seems so large ayways)
Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:46 pm Not sure how Elements are treated to be repaired(or not),...maybe this has something to do too?

Some Lend Lease Large caliber MGs may be missing, but not sure if in amounts that'd make up for whats observed in game.
no idea how many M2s might have ended up in Soviet hands-- i have the impression that (aircraft guns excluded) some went along with the m3 scout cars and shermans, but whether any were sent or used as dedicated aamgs is beyond me.

In the monthly production documents, they also have distinct goals set for weapons repaired. Small arms (including the DShK) aren't given a quota in that section, but i would infer that the rest of the document is in reference to new production only. So that's hopefully not an issue with those figures, at least.

I would have liked to see some of the 1944 planning documents, to see if they distinguished between tank- and ground-mount variations, but alas, i have not found them yet.

They do, however, distinguish between production for ground use and naval use, which was nice to (mostly, see below) avoid that additional variable. The numbers i quoted above were exclusively the ground variant, for what it's worth, since that's what we're actually getting in game. (Though i have seen reference to about 1000 army dshks being tranferred for naval use, so those would have to come out of any final total)
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Denniss »

thousands of DShk are mounted on IS-2 m1944 and IS-3 tanks as well as ISU-122/152 SP guns
Soviets get 1k M16 MGMC halftracks with quad M2s
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

Denniss wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 10:29 pm Soviets get 1k M16 MGMC halftracks with quad M2s
Albert L. Weeks; "Russia’s Life-Saver Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II", p.147 wrote: Gun - LL Export - Total Exports - Arrived - Lost En Route - Diverted
AA 90 mm - 270 - 270 - 241 - 9 - 0
AA 40mm - 5,595 - 5,595 - 5,399 - 196 - 0
AA 37mm - 424 - 424 - 340 - 16 - 0
AA 50 cal - 1,925 - 1,925 - 1,925 - 0 - 0
AA 4.7 in. - 4 - 4 - 4 - 0 - 0
AT 27 mm - 63 - 63 - 35 - 28 - 0
Some LL numbers I've found.
Possible that lots of that stuff is related to Port/Naval AA (read that in other occasions when reading about Bofor Guns).
Not sure why Total Expots "minus" Lost is not resulting in the Arrived number tho....that accounting is beyond me. :mrgreen:
The book also gives 1000x SPAA 50cal, those must be your mentioned MGMCs.
Now how those 1925 .50 cal were used....Stalin knows...replacements, mounted on vehicles, ...or may they have put them on Planes eventually?

Some example from an Ai Ai Attached.
Still 4.5k in service end of 44 seems not too bad.
But it also shows the issue you have mentioned, which is that the TOEs (despite the Ai not spamming numbers of Units it should/could) require more than were produced during war.
So it's possible Soviets simply yolo'd the TOEs or they replaced the large caliber MGs with (as in the game) regular MGs - altough at least in earlier TOEs they made clear distinction between the two (since DShK has a far superior range it's understandable to do so).
DrHiramTemple wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 6:36 pm The book Soviet Cannon gives the following totals for DShKs in use:

Code:
start 1942-----720
mid 1942-------1947
1943-----------5218
start 1944-----8442


(i'm admittedly not sure off hand if these represent all guns on-hand or just those on the eastern front, though it should be fine either way for our estimatations regarding the game)
Imo this 8442 seems off,...maybe that's a "need"? Or it also includes other AAMGs?!
Soviets lost multiple million men up until 1944, I doubt that they managed to protect their DShK that well against loss. :mrgreen:
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DrHiramTemple
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by DrHiramTemple »

Denniss wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 10:29 pm thousands of DShk are mounted on IS-2 m1944 and IS-3 tanks as well as ISU-122/152 SP guns
Soviets get 1k M16 MGMC halftracks with quad M2s
ah, i did miss the ISU-122 and M16 halftracks (though the M16s are a bit tangential to my point).

i have some production figures for these, but i'm not sure what percentage of them actually had DShKs equipped.

sources all say "some" ISU-122s and -152s had DShKs, but that's not terribly helpful.
and i generally undertand that the IS-2 1944 model was equipped with it, but i again don't have a precise number at the moment for them. Well, more digging i suppose :D
Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 11:43 pm
Albert L. Weeks; "Russia’s Life-Saver Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II", p.147 wrote: Gun - LL Export - Total Exports - Arrived - Lost En Route - Diverted
AA 90 mm - 270 - 270 - 241 - 9 - 0
AA 40mm - 5,595 - 5,595 - 5,399 - 196 - 0
AA 37mm - 424 - 424 - 340 - 16 - 0
AA 50 cal - 1,925 - 1,925 - 1,925 - 0 - 0
AA 4.7 in. - 4 - 4 - 4 - 0 - 0
AT 27 mm - 63 - 63 - 35 - 28 - 0
Some LL numbers I've found.
Possible that lots of that stuff is related to Port/Naval AA (read that in other occasions when reading about Bofor Guns).
Not sure why Total Expots "minus" Lost is not resulting in the Arrived number tho....that accounting is beyond me.
Oh this is interesting! regarding the number discrepancy, all i can think is that maybe some were rejected by Soviet QC? though that doesn't quite line up with the use of the word "arrived." shrugs

Soviet Cannon also gives some some figures regarding lend lease:
"The Soviet Navy received... 92 lend-lease 12.7mm quadruple barrel Vickers and 16-qq 12.7mm twin barrel Colt-Browning machine gun mounts.
not sure how that lines up with the Albert Weeks figures but I figured I'd throw that out.
Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 11:43 pm Imo this 8442 seems off,...maybe that's a "need"? Or it also includes other AAMGs?!
Soviets lost multiple million men up until 1944, I doubt that they managed to protect their DShK that well against loss. :mrgreen:
That's why i think the production values are too low! i agree that it's possible the soviets were just making bad TOEs involving this gun, but i just feel like by late war they had mostly gotten their act together on that front and were pretty pragmatic on that front.

And to give the full quote from Soviet Cannon:
In the beginning of 1942 the Red Army had 720 DShK machine guns in its inventory, in mid 1942 they counted 1,947 and during the following year this number increased to 5,218. in the beginning of 1944 the army had as many as 8,442 DShK machine guns in operation.
So he's specifically referring to just DShKs. And those numbers should all be before their widespread installation on ISs and ISUs. He provides a lot of sources, but no direct citations, so I haven't got around to tracking down his source for the number.

But i still want to point back to the soviet production documents. extrapolating the numbers i listed to subsequent months gives a conservative production goal of 6,210 in 1942 and 14,100 in 1943, for a total of 20,310 in just those two years! these figures are specifically referring to DShKs on a "universal machine" which, assuming my translation efforts are correct, is in reference to the convertible wheeled carriage/tripod they were mounted on for ground use (which is again why i would love to see if they distinguish against those built for mounting to AFVs in 1944). Even if production was only half of that total (which seems unlikely given the relative accuracy of other figures), this production would still outstrip the in-game/Wikipedia figures.
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

DrHiramTemple wrote: Mon May 19, 2025 7:10 pm That's why i think the production values are too low! i agree that it's possible the soviets were just making bad TOEs involving this gun, but i just feel like by late war they had mostly gotten their act together on that front and were pretty pragmatic on that front.
Yep you'd think so, as said, the DShK as opposed to Artillery may die too quickly in combat which causes some of the "missing" availability.

Late 1944 ID TOE requires 18 DShk, Soviets had 500+Divisions. Many obv. were "reduced strength" TOEs, but even just taking 18x500 you already get 9000 ...and that's just IDs.
On top they had formed in 1944 two AAMG Divisions and had additional 26xAAMG Regiments + 26xAAMG Battalions...and then DShK were also part of all the other AA TOEs and Units... :shock:
I'll try to find the soviet military abbreviation for the AAMG Regiments and Divisions and see what the archives say about them.

Further:
VtB Scenario starts 13th Jan 1945 with
- 11651 DShK in service + 3428 Pool
- 1902 Quad Maxim + 194 Pool
...I can understand the number in service simply by building the TOEs, which is fine. But the Pool ?!
DrHiramTemple wrote: Mon May 19, 2025 7:10 pm And to give the full quote from Soviet Cannon:
In the beginning of 1942 the Red Army had 720 DShK machine guns in its inventory, in mid 1942 they counted 1,947 and during the following year this number increased to 5,218. in the beginning of 1944 the army had as many as 8,442 DShK machine guns in operation.
So he's specifically referring to just DShKs. And those numbers should all be before their widespread installation on ISs and ISUs. He provides a lot of sources, but no direct citations, so I haven't got around to tracking down his source for the number.

But i still want to point back to the soviet production documents. extrapolating the numbers i listed to subsequent months gives a conservative production goal of 6,210 in 1942 and 14,100 in 1943, for a total of 20,310 in just those two years! these figures are specifically referring to DShKs on a "universal machine" which, assuming my translation efforts are correct, is in reference to the convertible wheeled carriage/tripod they were mounted on for ground use (which is again why i would love to see if they distinguish against those built for mounting to AFVs in 1944). Even if production was only half of that total (which seems unlikely given the relative accuracy of other figures), this production would still outstrip the in-game/Wikipedia figures.
The translation is little weird in the following, but at least we know which two towns were main manufacturing sites (probably). As I read it the production basically moved (largely) from Kovrov to Kuibyshev. Kovrov is little east/northeast of Moscow.
https://en.topwar.ru/14523-krupnokalibernyy-pulemet-dshk.html wrote:In the 41 year, with the approach to Moscow, the German troops identified reserve plants in case Plant No. XXUMX ceased production of weapons. Production of DShK was delivered in the city of Kuibyshev, where 2 devices and machines from Kovrov were transferred. As a result, during the war, the main production went on in Kovrov, and in Kuibyshev - the “duplicate”.
Do you know the date of the planned production? Was this before evacuating production or after that?...or during ongoing evacuation...
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

I have found some ~1944 TOEs of "independent Companies" of AAMGs, they all requested solely DShK (the ones I have found).

Something regarding the "Divisions" (these are "HQ Divisions" controlling separate Regiments, not sure if the two (91st+89th are considered the later proper "Divisions" (I don't think so)):
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%91%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D0%92%D0%9E wrote:In total, from May 30 to June 15, 1943, three anti-aircraft machine-gun air defense divisions were formed at the Special Moscow Air Defense Army on the basis of the Order of the NPO the USSR:
[...]
which became part of the Moscow air defense front.

Each division consisted of up to 5 anti-aircraft machine gun regiments, they had 250 large-caliber machine guns. [...]
[...]
By the end of 1943, all machine-gun divisions were completely re-equipped with large-caliber (12.7 mm) DShK anti-aircraft machine guns.

In 1944, the 2nd and 3rd divisions were reformed in the 91st and 89th anti-aircraft artillery divisions of air defense. The 1st anti-aircraft machine gun control division since April 1944 was part of the Northern Front of the air defense, and since December 1944 - the Central Front of the air defense.

Regarding my guess:
(...that they are treated differently because they are target type INF instead of ART as other AA and this could cause some issues/more being lost (as said just a guess)...well maybe still a difference in repairs, who knows)...

Assuming my guess is wrong, what may be is the simple explanation that they are present in many TOEs and usually in larger numbers than other AA assets. So you have 40xDShK/turn + 25xQuad Maxim/turn as AAMGs to fill those many slots, meanwhile you have 75x37mmAA/turn and 50x85mmAA/turn while both of them being less wide spread inside regular Divisions/TOEs. The 85mm is rare in TOEs and the 37mm is rarer than DShK and has already more production then both AAMGs combined.
This is also partially supported by the recent talks in another thread where like 5k 85mm were in the Pool (not sure about the 37mm but it's likely also thousands). Ai in December 1944 has also thousands of AA in the Pool (but it's also pretty bad at building units and using SUs)...see attached pic.

Further:
VtB scenario has almost 1k Units requesting DShk in January 1945.

OR...ofc. you may have found an error in the Matrix and Soviets failed reporting all produced DShK properly... :D


EDIT:
Nice read: Instructions for the combat use of anti-aircraft machinery companies of rifle divisions
(Инструкция по боевому использованию зенитно-пулеметных рот стрелковых дивизий)
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DrHiramTemple
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by DrHiramTemple »

I'm back with more numbers!

I've found a few more sources and an actual primary document with production numbers! unfortunately, it only gives quantities for the 3rd quarter of 1941, but that's something, at least. per https://www.newspapers.historyrussia.or ... lya-1942-g, 449 DShKs for ground use were produced from July through September of 41, giving an average that rounds to 150 a month. that's in the ballpark of the monthly in-game average of about 174. Now I was already under the impression that DShK production ramped up considerably the war, so I'm not terribly concerned with these numbers being low. however, for september they had already set a production goal of 500 guns, which obviously throws out any hope of those goals being an acurate reflection of production.

However, i also found this site, which gives citations the figures given in Soviet Cannon and topwar.eu:
http://www.telenir.net/transport_i_avia ... _02/p7.php

In particular, they note a full "45.3 thousand 12.7-mm machine guns,including those received from industry, on lend-lease and after restoration (overhaul)." note that this quote is google translated from the original Russian.

So, working from this total, we should be be able to subtract all the other guns and variants, and be left with just the DshK.

Starting with lend lease, i summed up everything that could conceivably hold an M2 from the list here:https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/re ... ip-3A.html

Code: Select all

M17 SPAA			1000
M3A1 scout			3,340
M2 halftrack			402
M5 halftack			420
M3 halftrack			2
M15 SPAA			100
M4 sherman			4102
"Cal. .50, w/c, M2, AA"		3,100
"Cal. .50, M2 Flex"		420
as an aside, i have no clue what the w/c stands for for the AA M2s. Anyone have an idea?

The M17 gets multiplied by 4 and the M15 gets multiplied by 2. The last entry, Cal 50 M2 Flex, was listed under the Accessories section, and I think I might be double-counting those with the M5s, but i'll leave them on for now.

No idea how these line up with the 1,925 from your source, Wiedrock, but the list I'm working from is ostensibly all-encompassing, so i'll stick to what i have here.

Now Soviet Cannon and others reference an additional 92 quad-barrel Vickers guns and 1,611 "12.7mm Cold-Browning machine gun mounts" for the Navy. The vickers guns are easy, just multiply by 4 and tack them on, but the additional brownings don't quite line up with any of the items from the list above. Once again, because the above list is obstensibly all-encompassing for US Lend-Lease, I've opted to leave those off.

all together, that gives 16,354 50 Cals from Lend Lease. next up, we have 5,164 DShKs that were sent to the navy. it's not clear if the 45,300 figure includes naval assets or is just for ground forces, so I'm airing on the side of caution here and removing those as well.

And lastly, tank-mounted DShKs. i've had a bit of trouble tracking down good production numbers that specifically start and end with the war, so I've been a bit lazy and used the figures from in-game. Here i simply extrapolated the weekly production to wars end, except for the T-40, for which i just used the build limit.

Code: Select all

T-40		251
IS-2 model 1944 2167
ISU-122		1859
ISU-152		1659 	
Summing these up gives a total of 5,685 DShK-equipped tanks.

Subtracting the Lend-Lease, Navy, and tank numbers from the overall total gives a final quantity of 17,647 remaining "large caliber machine guns." If I'm missing some other place the Soviets could have been stuffing their heavy machine guns, please point it out to me, but from what I can tell this final quantity must be exclusively ground-mount DshKs. If this number is indeed accurate, we could be looking at a production rate at around 87 a week, more than double the existing in-game production. Now, the original quantity did include guns that were damaged and repaired, but I don't think even the powers of communism could hit a repair rate that would make up that gap.

But still, taking some repairs into account, I believe you could comfortably set the production rate to around 75, leaving a fair amount of wiggle room.

On a final note, I've been mentally preparing to discover that i've been on a wild goose chase this whole time-- I'm half-expecting someone will drop a good source that trashes the work i've done here, so please feel free to do just that if you have the docs! This has been a fun (if a bit time-consuming) exploration for me in and of itself, so i wont terribly mind if it turns out I've made a fool of myself trying to chase this down :D
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

http://www.telenir.net/transport_i_aviacija/tehnika_i_vooruzhenie_1998_02/p7.php wrote:The number of large-caliber machine guns (in thousands of units) in 1941 -1945
(Source of the Armed Forces of the USSR in the Wars of Moscow: 1993)

Code: Select all

Year 	Was held by the beginning of the year 	Entered the troops 	Losses
1941 	2.2* 	1.4 	1.4
1942 	2.2 	7.4 	4.9
1943 	4.7 	14.4 	0.9
1944 	18.2 	14.8 	1.9
1945 	31.1 	7,3** 	0.9**
* – as of 22.06.1941

**- 00 10.05.1945

The number of 12.7mm machine guns DShK in the active army
Date / Number of machine guns (un.)

Code: Select all

01.01. 1942 	01.07. 1942 	01.01. 1943 	01.01. 1944
720 	1947 	5218 	8442
(Source: D.N. Bolotin "History of Soviet Small Arms and Cartridges" St. Petersburg, 1995)

Total, for the war, the troops received 45.3 thousand 12.7-mm machine guns, including those received from industry, on lend-lease and after restoration (overhaul). Lost about 10 thousand 12.7-mm machine guns. The table does not take into account machine guns transferred to the allies of the USSR (Origsk to Poland, etc.).

It should be noted that the difference in the data of both tables, according to the author, is mainly due to various machine guns counting systems.
No matter how we would ever spin or count it. Receiving 14.8k in 1944 is already too large for any repairs and whatnot.

The 8442 as I pointed out before is already ridiculously suspicious by suggesting that they'd not have lost any/barely any DShK HMGs over the 2.5years of war (if we assume the total wikipedia production figures are correct).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%A8%D0%9A wrote:By the beginning of 1944, more than 8400 DShK machine guns had been produced.[5]

Until the end of the Great Patriotic War, 9 thousand machine guns of DShK were released [3], in the post -war period, the release of machine guns continued.
I don't see how in the world "various machine guns counting systems" (see telenir quote) would lead to such difference - unless there were massive amounts of twin/tripple/quadruple-barreled guns around - but where there?
A guess that I'd make is that the 8442 in service in 1944 is the number of either the PVO - 'OR' - the Red Army (while it excludes the other). And further guess would be that the 9k 'produced' floating around on wikipedia could be derived not from actual production figures but by "entered the PVO or Red Army"-figures or some other metric, like "produced on a 2-wheeled carriage" (or so). All guesses, but if the source of the first table is not completely screwed there's something off (unless the author confused MMG/HMG/Large Caliber and listed all the Maxims, SG-43s and so on... but then again the "have" and the "produced" in early 1944 does not make sense after 2.5years of war).
Soviet PVO (Air Defence Forces) afaik was not considered part of the Red Army (Ground Forces), but both were considered part of the Soviet Armed Forces - not sure of the VVS (Air Forces) also had AA units or wheter Airfield protection was handled by PVO Strany. And then there was the RVGK (Reserve of the High Command), not sure what they'd be counted since those were somewhat mixed... I could imagine some confusion of all the numbers being related to all the branches being counted (or not).
And then there's the Navy....
DrHiramTemple wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 6:16 am 5,164 DShKs that were sent to the navy
where did you get that number from again (some number x4+another number)?
DrHiramTemple wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 6:16 am as an aside, i have no clue what the w/c stands for for the AA M2s. Anyone have an idea?
Just guessing:
w/ = with
w/c = with carriage???

or

w/c = water-cooled :)
Denniss
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Denniss »

Throwing in a new theory: I have seen claims of the soviet airforce removing the US .5 MGs from certain bombers and replacing them with soviet ones. Those .5 may have made it to the army although they would have required modifications to increase cooling.
DrHiramTemple
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by DrHiramTemple »

Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 9:29 am Soviet PVO (Air Defence Forces) afaik was not considered part of the Red Army (Ground Forces), but both were considered part of the Soviet Armed Forces - not sure of the VVS (Air Forces) also had AA units or wheter Airfield protection was handled by PVO Strany. And then there was the RVGK (Reserve of the High Command), not sure what they'd be counted since those were somewhat mixed... I could imagine some confusion of all the numbers being related to all the branches being counted (or not).
And then there's the Navy....
hmm it would make a lot of sense then if these lower numbers were pulling from just the army or maybe pvo (or some other subset!)
Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 9:29 am
DrHiramTemple wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 6:16 am 5,164 DShKs that were sent to the navy
where did you get that number from again (some number x4+another number)?
For the naval figure, that was mentioned in Soviet Cannon:
During the war the Soviet Navy received 5164 DShK machine guns that were supplemented by 92 lend lease 12.7mm quadruple barrel Vickers and 1611 12.7mm twin parrel Colt-Browning machine gun mounts.
it was mentioned in another source that i can't quite recall offhand. that one also broke down the naval DShKs as being about 4,000 produced specifically for the navy and about 1,000 that were transferred over from the army.

Wiedrock wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 9:29 am Just guessing:
w/ = with
w/c = with carriage???

or

w/c = water-cooled :)
water cooled does seem most likely, i couldn't find any US army reference to a machine gun "carriage" in my brief search. Could be a case of the US dumping out of date equipment on the soviets that they weren't planning on using anymore.

Denniss wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 1:39 pm Throwing in a new theory: I have seen claims of the soviet airforce removing the US .5 MGs from certain bombers and replacing them with soviet ones. Those .5 may have made it to the army although they would have required modifications to increase cooling.
they would have replaced any aircraft .50s with UB series mgs though, right? if the leftover guns were converted for ground use, any reduction in DShKs in my calculation would be compensated for with M2s. i would honestly be ok with the game treating these as a "counts as" situation, since the total number of large caliber machine guns would be the same. Though if this was done in large enough qtys, then it would be nice to have them show up in game at some point for accuracy.



And finally, I am happy to report that i found another production log, this one for November 1942 :
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes ... e/1/zoom/5 I'm guessing the numbers shown here were rounded (that or the soviets loved manufacturing in round numbers)

This document reports a full 1,200 DShKs produced in November, matching the quota that can be seen here:https://www.prlib.ru/en/item/1350854 (split between 1100 for ground use and 100 for naval use). This bodes extremely well for my hypothesis her--as i noted in my original post, if they were able to actually hit these goals real-world production would completely blow away the in-game figure. unfortunately, this is still just one data point. i feel like i need at least a few more months of production data before i can really call it conclusive. But still, I'm super optimistic!
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

DrHiramTemple wrote: Mon May 26, 2025 11:01 pm And finally, I am happy to report that i found another production log, this one for November 1942 :
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes ... e/1/zoom/5 I'm guessing the numbers shown here were rounded (that or the soviets loved manufacturing in round numbers)

This document reports a full 1,200 DShKs produced in November, matching the quota that can be seen here:https://www.prlib.ru/en/item/1350854 (split between 1100 for ground use and 100 for naval use). This bodes extremely well for my hypothesis her--as i noted in my original post, if they were able to actually hit these goals real-world production would completely blow away the in-game figure. unfortunately, this is still just one data point. i feel like i need at least a few more months of production data before i can really call it conclusive. But still, I'm super optimistic!
Almost certain you've got it. But yes 1-2 more monthly reports would be awesome to underline it.
But producing 1200 in a single month is more than 10% of what Wikipedia states as overall Production from 193X-1945. The split between Army(+PVO(?)) and Navy also makes sense.

Regarding the "rounding"....well... in socialism and dictatorships weird things can happpen, and since Soviets had both simultaneously... delivering the 1200 requested and keeping the remaining overproduction to make sure you reach your production targets for the next month to not get to Gulag makes sense from a survival perspective. :)
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/379175?query=%D0%94%D0%A8%D0%9A#mode/inspect/page/2/zoom/6 wrote:Document 183

GKO RESOLUTION NO 1845SS

About the plan of production and supply of artillery and small arms and military

"Drafts for June 1942"

Moscow, Kremlin on June 3, 1942

Completely secret
DShK_06-1942.png
DShK_06-1942.png (500.93 KiB) Viewed 376 times
The lower area "Berezina (Березина)" seems to be the Aircraft Versions of large caliber Soviet Guns. So if this comes up or one of the abbrevations/variants (3-letter-abbrevations UBS, UBK ...) it is about the plane MGs.
The 660(+90(?)) also matches somewhat with your initial planning numbers of "Apr-42:500 and Jul-42:700".

The following is July and 3rd Quarter plannings:
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/379224#mode/inspect/page/2/zoom/6 wrote: Document 207

RESOLUTION OF GKO NO. 1961s

About the plan of production and supply of artillery and small arms
and military instruments for July and the 3rd quarter of 1942.

Moscow, Kremlin July 4, 1942

Completely secret

State Defense Committee Post 1. To approve the plan of production and post of Laryntic and small arms for the quarter of 1942 in the following quantities: annulling: shock artillery - the name of armaments July and 3rd Nakomkomata and the factory - supplier July 3rd quarter of 1942.

Code: Select all

Name		July		3rd Quarter 1942
DShK Army	700			2300
DShK Navy	75			180
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

As already mentioned, after evac the Production of DShK was in Kuybishev.

Here a report about "Production goals fullfilled" for the first halve of 1943 from the Kuybishev Region.
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/205103#mode/inspect/page/1/zoom/4 wrote:No 120

Certificate of Kuibyshev Regional Committee of the CPSU (b) on the work of factories
defense industry of the region in the first half of 1943

July 1943.

Secretly

The defense industry of the region as a whole fulfilled the plan half a year by 90%, giving products at 905484 t.p., which is against the actual issue of the first half of 1942 - 120.6%, or on 153832 thousand rubles. more. Against the second half of 1942 - 93%, or 69626 thousand rubles less.

Of the 10 plants, a six-month plan was completed, which was given over the plan of the half-year to the fund of the Main Command of the Red Army 18402 thousand rubles. v. v.:
factory No. 309 - 9548
Factory No. 525 - 7604
Factory No. 530 - 615
Artpolygon - 500
Alec, sulfur - 135.


The ratio of the actual output of products of the first half of 1943 by the first half of 1942 is in %% for plants:
factory No 13 - 186
factory No. 15 - 126
factory No. 42 - 79.7
factory No. 102 - 119.5
plant No. 309 - 133.0
factory No. 525 - 203[%]
factory No. 530 - 126.3
factory No 676 - 418.0
Artpolygon -221.0
Alec, sulfur - 129.5.

Thus, only the plant No. 42 by 20% gave less than the products,
than in the first half of 1942.


[...]


At Plant No. 525, a flow was organized for the production of the bolt, box, and other parts of the DShK product. An electric steel foundry was put into operation. An electric furnace was manufactured in-house. Mastered the casting of tables and swivels for the DShK. Mass production of zenpritsel was launched. By improving the technology, the production time was reduced:
Shkas by 20%, DShK by 26%, SDShK by 51%. The output of DShK machines was increased by 40%. The cover, loading handle, and other parts were switched to stamping. Milling was replaced with broaching, etc.
Further the workers/their superiors were even awarded for surplus productions in 1944.
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/205105#mode/inspect/page/1/zoom/4 wrote:No. 122

From The Decree Of The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR
awarding orders and medals of factory workers No. 525
the People's Commissariat of Armament of the USSR

January 5, 1944

For exemplary performance of tasks of the State Committee
Defense to increase the production of small arms for the front
award:

Order of Lenin

1. Vetrari Mikhail Alexandrovich - locksmith

2. Charsky Fedor Kapitonovich - director of the plant....1

Chairman Of The Presidium Of The Supreme Soviet of the USSR M. Kalinin
Secretary Of The Presidium Of The Supreme Council A. Gorkin

Moscow, Kremlin. January 5, 1944

Statement of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. 1944. 23 January. No. 4. C.4.

1 The same decree awarded the Order of the Red Banner of Labor awarded 6 people, the order
Red Star - 17 people, Order "Bad of Honor" - 22 people, medal "For
labor valor" - 14 people, medal "For labor distinction" - 16 people.
Further the production reports for 1944:
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/205107#mode/inspect/page/2/zoom/4 wrote: No. 124

From the Kuibyshev Regional Committee of the CPSU (b)
on the work of the enterprises of the defense industry for 1944.

January 1945

Owl Secret

The entire industry of the Kuibyshev region has fulfilled the plan for
Commodity products by 96.2%, which is 91.4% compared to the issue of 1943.


[...]


Factories that produced products more than 1943 (5 out of 11 enterprises):
- No525: 400169(1943)→426908(1944)
So from seeing this, it is save to assume, that if the planning for Factory No. 525 contained e.g. 1200 DShK being produced per month, they on average managed to produce ~1200 DShK per month. So the "planning numbers" seem to, at least for this period, match to some degree with what was rly produced.
It also adds up if we take the ~600 guns/month in the first halve of 1942 and the ~1200 guns in the first halve of 1943 that we get 1943 being 203% of production of 1942.
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

DrHiramTemple wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 6:16 am Subtracting the Lend-Lease, Navy, and tank numbers from the overall total gives a final quantity of 17,647 remaining "large caliber machine guns." If I'm missing some other place the Soviets could have been stuffing their heavy machine guns, please point it out to me, but from what I can tell this final quantity must be exclusively ground-mount DshKs. If this number is indeed accurate, we could be looking at a production rate at around 87 a week, more than double the existing in-game production. Now, the original quantity did include guns that were damaged and repaired, but I don't think even the powers of communism could hit a repair rate that would make up that gap.

But still, taking some repairs into account, I believe you could comfortably set the production rate to around 75, leaving a fair amount of wiggle room.
Ballparking numbers (using somewhat lower numbers).
1941: ignore
1942: 12x500
1943: 12x1150
1944: 12x1200
1945: 5x1250
= 40450 ~41k → which is not far off from the 45k which got sourced before.
If we now take the "given" 45k from the source and substract "your" Navy ~5k and "your" Tanks ~5k we'd get 35k. The Lend-Lease I'd assume is completely separate, since the production figures make sense/give those numbers by themselves.
This would give over 203 turns 173DShK/turn (from now 40).
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by DrHiramTemple »

Your findings really make this pretty undeniable Wiedrock! It would still be nice to find some more numbers for other years, but it's quite obvious now that the current production numbers are far too low.
Wiedrock wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 3:32 am
= 40450 ~41k → which is not far off from the 45k which got sourced before.
If we now take the "given" 45k from the source and substract "your" Navy ~5k and "your" Tanks ~5k we'd get 35k. The Lend-Lease I'd assume is completely separate, since the production figures make sense/give those numbers by themselves.
This would give over 203 turns 173DShK/turn (from now 40).
Yeah, my calculation was meant to be particularly conservative so as to avoid any potential doubt on the matter and provide a safe minimum. Especially with your recent findings, I'm thinking a production figure of between 20,000-40,000 for the ground mount version is a reasonable range.
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

DrHiramTemple wrote: Sat May 31, 2025 2:45 pm Yeah, my calculation was meant to be particularly conservative so as to avoid any potential doubt on the matter and provide a safe minimum. Especially with your recent findings, I'm thinking a production figure of between 20,000-40,000 for the ground mount version is a reasonable range.
Yep. I also tried to finde some more "public" Russian sources/sites and it appears that there's rly these two numbers-"lines", either 9k or 45k.

But interestingly the 9k is always related to the same copy-paste and logic issues which wikipedia contains, which is that the 8.4k figure for 1944 is given as "produced (total ever produced)", not as "in service". Further the "9k-line/sources" does/do not offer any further info about annual production or weapons in service at a certain point in time. What's also missing is the reason why Production later was supposed to be so massively reduced, since (applying wikipedia numbers):
2000 at start leading to 8400 in 01/1944 makes (8400-2000)/2.5years=2560perYear being produced on average
→ 1944 till victory/1945 means ~1.5years left.
→ 1.5years x 2560average = 3840
→ 8400 + 3840 = 12240 AND NOT 9000!!! Off by ~30%
As said, not worth any mentioning. But most likely everything wrong anyways... :D

No matter how I look at it, the "45k-line" with:
  • 45k totals (with annual production figures given)
  • 720(01/42)→8440(01/44) in service numbers given
  • monthly/quarterly/halve-yearly planned production figures from Russian Archives
  • 2 found reports stating that the factory producing the guns had reached its goals (Russian Archives)
  • the increase of guns in all TOEs over time
...just is the only way to make sense of it.
https://svetorusie.livejournal.com/470979.html wrote:Due to its high combat qualities, the DShK large-caliber machine gun was used in almost all branches of the armed forces, but its production clearly lagged behind the needs. During all the pre-war years, about 2,000 DShK machine guns were produced; as of January 1, 1942, the active army had only 720 units, and only by January 1944 this number increased to 8,440.

In February 1945, the first batch of 250 modernized DShKM machine guns with a new feeding mechanism and improved barrel-to-receiver mount was released. The DShKM machine gun was widely used after the war.
This gives the same numbers.
Simply using those you'd get:
8440-720=7720
01/42→01/44 = 2years
2years = (365daysx2)/7DaysPerTurn=104.3turns
7720/104.3=73.95=74GunsPerTurn
Which is basically what you already calculated "I believe you could comfortably set the production rate to around 75, leaving a fair amount of wiggle room" and should be seen as the low-low-low...loooooowest treshold and is to 99.99% likely still off by 2x because it ignores:
→the source stating the 45k (with exact annual figures),
→that in war guns are actually being lost!,
→all the production goals and the reports about continouously well executed/reached production goals of the factory 525 and
common sense! :lol:
DrHiramTemple wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 6:36 pm next up, I stumbled upon a blog post on topwar .eu that claims the soviets lost around 10,000 "heavy machine guns" during the war, representing 21% of total production. This gives an eye-watering total of 47,600 DShKs produced, which feels... optimistic compared to any other number i've dug up (the dshk was the only large-caliber mg produced by the soviets in quantity afaik, and maxim production completely dwarfs this number, so it can't be a combination of those two). Let's just call that an upper bound.
Here the Quote I assume you meant (so we have it at hand):
https://topwar.ru/403-pulemet-s-laskovym-imenem.html wrote:In the first half of 1941, 234 DShKs were released, although the general plan for this year assumed 4000. The Navy at the beginning of the war had 830 machine guns, and in total during the war received 4018 pieces from industry and another 1146 was transferred to the fleet from the Red Army. And if the army and fleet were sometimes provided with manual and machine guns even even in excess of the state, then there was a clear drawback in the large-calibers.

It is no coincidence that in the first three months of the war, the production of large-caliber machine guns increased five times. The main production of DShK at the plant No. 2 was duplicated in Kuibyshev, where 555 machines and devices were transferred from Kovrov. They tried to reduce the cost of manufacturing: if in 1941, 210 workers were required for the production of large-caliber machine guns per 100 units of production, in 1943 - 110. And if for the first six months of the war the Armed Forces received 1400 DShK from industry, and for the whole of 1942 - 7400, then in 1943 - 14 400, in 1944 - 14 800, and for the first half of 1945 - 7300.

The change in the share of large-caliber machine guns can be judged by such figures: according to the state of December 1941, the RKKA infantry division had 12 large-caliber machine guns, from March 1942 - 9, from December 1944 - already 18.
Just imagine the Soviets planning 1200 per month in 1943 (meaning 277/week) and would only get:
...I know it's linear production... :ugeek:
40/week over 4.333weeks/month = 173/month → this should be the linear weekly production! (MISSING 85.6%!!!)
or with the "75 conservative of uncertainty"
75/week * 4.333 = 325/month (MISSING 72.9%!!! to the needed linear ~172 or 173)

...and then supplying the workers with "Order of Lenin" and other Awards for working properly!!! :lol:

You can easily go to 160/turn (which already substracted the 5k navy and 5k Tanks and leaves still "12-13per turn (35k/203=172)" (~2500) for corrupt schemes! 8-) ...and accounts for potential surplus at game start.
...or make a exact calculation (like without all my generous rounding) using proper Tank+Navy+Production figures.
But overall rly a nice find you have there.
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Wiedrock
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Re: DShK Production Quantities

Post by Wiedrock »

Found the reason. Hope Google translation isn't playing tricks on me but:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%A8%D0%9A wrote:До конца Великой Отечественной войны было выпущено 9 тысяч пулемётов ДШК[3], в послевоенное время выпуск пулемётов продолжался.

Until the end of the Great Patriotic War, 9 thousand machine guns of DShK were released [3], in the post -war period, the release of machine guns continued.
So Wikipedia states it as being total "released" (production)...
The source he quotes on page 291 states:
V.A. Kashevsky. Infantry weapons of World War II. (russian) wrote:Due to its high combat qualities, the DShK large-caliber machine gun was used in almost all branches of the armed forces. During the war, individual changes were made to the design of the machine gun, due to which it was later called the DShKM (Degtyarev Shpagin large-caliber modernized). The new machine gun was distinguished by a modified feeding mechanism, a modified bolt assembly, an improved barrel-to-receiver mount, and a number of parts. The modernization made it possible to increase the survivability of some parts and improve the reliability and trouble-free operation of the machine gun's automatics. The first batch of 250 DShKM machine guns was produced in February 1945, and during the war, about 9,000 DShK machine guns entered service with the Red Army.
So the source refers to ENTERING SERVICE IN THE RED ARMY - 'NOT THE TOTAL PRODUCTION'. And since most AA was PVO the figure is obv. missing a lot, if his estimated 9k is "correct" I do not know, but I have doubts it is.
Alone the ~80 AA Divisions of the Artillery Branch would have had 80x52=4160, using a very conservative 300Divisionsx12DShK=3600, maybe he just guessed, confused "available at wars end" with "ever received" or he left out the whole Red Army Artillery Branch (or just the separate AA formations)....or...or...
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