Soviet Ski Brigade TOEs 1942

[Wiedrock]

I assume that both Ski Brigades (42a and 42b) were created by multiplying the late 41 Battalion TOE (which was most likely never TOE'ed like in game). Those Battalions were slightly changed from 578 to 566 Men. I assume this caused the addition of a "ID:2290 42b Ski Brigade". Since the 41 Ski Battalion TOE most likely is wrong, both Brigade TOEs are wrong too. Addtitionally a Brigade more than often isn't just a multiplied 3-Battalion asset - HQ/Medic/Signal/more firepower/SUPPORT anyone?

Here you can see the ~09/1942 TOE of a Ski Brigade.

https://www.soldat.ru/doc/gko/text/2218.html

Ski Brigade_TOE 1942-08-28.png (60.13 KiB) Viewed 773 times

Some Notes:

• The 3 Machine Guns are the DshK in the AAMG Platoon.
• The 130/136 Men in the Sapper/Engineer Platoon shouldn't go straight into 13 Sapper Squads, I guess more like 3Platoons of 3 or 4 Squads each would be more appropriate, especially considering that German Untis manpower with advanced engineering equipment and vehicles is dumped into Support Elements, whereas Soviet sappers with shovels and Mosins are able to fire and contribute way more CV. ...and ofc. they contribute more to Construction value as Labour Squad than Support Squad Ground Elements...
• As you can see the "Reconnaissance Company" gets 105 SMGs. I am still not sure whether Soviets differentiated between "Scout" and "Reconnaissance" in any way with varying usage/equipment for each of the terms. If both is/was the same then I'd encourage the creation of new or recycling of old Squads to account for that 105SMGs firepower. Also see the purple coloured notes regarding the "Scout Section" in the following picture regarding the Ski Battalion. I just struggle to not see Scouts as combatants as it seems to be the case when looking at the ingame TOE and I encountered the same when looking into the Alpini Division TOEs. But I'd like to hear/get sources explaining their usage if someone can share any.

Similarly it is mentioned in the Red Army Handbook and I also found several other russian speaking pages referring to this TOE.

Here once again what's currently in game and what's written in the Red Army Handbook.

Text from Red Army Handbook

How to BatBrig.png (1016.37 KiB) Viewed 773 times

1. The bottom left area is related to the report about the 42 Ski battalion TOE, which eventually needs less Support elements than currently.
2. The Top left 41TOE also needs a change as mentioned here.
3. The top right 42a Ski Brigade TOE most likely needs to be a x3 of the corrected 41 Ski battalion TOE (most likley they also had more Assets/HQ/Support, need to find their TOE to be sure it's more than just "x3").
4. The bottom right Brigade either needs to be shifted to 10/1942 and contents adjusted to the corrected 42 Ski battalion TOE (x3) and also needs to be given the additional Brigade Assets, mentioned in the TOE shown above or in the Red Army Handbook text to the bottom right.
   Alternatively the addition of a 42c Ski Brigade TOE could be created, but then the 42b Ski Brigade TOE would also need to be redone/corrected to be in line with the "slightly less Manpower 41 Ski battalion TOE [from 578 to 566 Men]".

Generally I think it would be alright to give them some colourful mix of Squads (like the "(-)" ones) since sources often mention that all battalions were little different, more than often lacking stuff/weapons/grenades.

Following another page referring to this TOE:

http://klub-mastera.narod.ru/publ/tvorchestvo_masterov/tvorchestvo_olega_volkova/lyzhnye_brigady_novye_svedenija_o_dmitrii_vladimirove/60-1-0-2622

Brigade_Equip.png (45.37 KiB) Viewed 773 times

[DrHiramTemple]

i've noticed that several scenario starts (so far checked the StB start and related smaller scenarios) give ski brigades a bunch of out of TOE equipment which looks to line up better with the documents you posted. seems like these may have accidentally been changed at some point?

[Wiedrock]

i've noticed that several scenario starts (so far checked the StB start and related smaller scenarios) give ski brigades a bunch of out of TOE equipment which looks to line up better with the documents you posted. seems like these may have accidentally been changed at some point?

There was a big OOB 2.0 Update changing most of the TOEs.

[DrHiramTemple]

been doing some more digging on this one--here's the most fully equipped ski brigade at the start of StB:

Ski brigade extra equipment StB.png (1.29 MiB) Viewed 618 times

while it's not perfect, it seems to line up pretty darn close to the TOE you posted (though there's even some discrepancies between the list in sections I and II; for example, I. calls for 4 ski battalions, but the the total manpower and 50 mm mortar count in section II imply only 3 battalions.)

interestingly, there's also a TOE in the unit data for a a "45 Mountain Brigade" (OB# 2265), that lines up exactly with loadout of the ski brigade here. Adding to the weirdness, This TOE is also included in the TOE chain for ski brigades.

So yeah, something funky probably happened ski brigades durring an OOB update, as you suggested. I'm guessing the currently active TOEs are meant to represent more ad-hoc formations from the first winter, and the later 1942 upgrade somehow got scrubbed.

[Wiedrock]

been doing some more digging on this one--here's the most fully equipped ski brigade at the start of StB:

[...]

So yeah, something funky probably happened ski brigades durring an OOB update, as you suggested. I'm guessing the currently active TOEs are meant to represent more ad-hoc formations from the first winter, and the later 1942 upgrade somehow got scrubbed.

Yes this looks alright'ish, altough as you can see it has TOE of 173%. So it will shed soon. The TOEs before OOB 2.0 were the same (I've been sent a "locked" Scenario from game version before OOB 2.0 by Beethoven), so the only somewhat correct TOE we got and ever had is the "initial 'have' TOE" of such units...and your mentioned "45 Mountain Brigade".

it seems to line up pretty darn close to the TOE you posted (though there's even some discrepancies between the list in sections I and II; for example, I. calls for 4 ski battalions, but the the total manpower and 50 mm mortar count in section II imply only 3 battalions.)

I do not have the main source to this translated order, so the issue can be in many areas. Maybe it is even existing in the original document/calculation, it's not uncommon to have such mistakes. Or there was a further note related to when to use the 4 or 3 Battalion setup. The 3000 is just a general number, Soviets often made such "straight numbers" in documents, in the end commanders would have to rotate men around as was required themselves anyways.

interestingly, there's also a TOE in the unit data for a a "45 Mountain Brigade" (OB# 2265), that lines up exactly with loadout of the ski brigade here. Adding to the weirdness, This TOE is also included in the TOE chain for ski brigades.

Soviets did a lot of short term creations when it comes to the Ski-Untis, maybe in January they needed them again and just called them differently, can't say for sure.

[Wiedrock]

Ski Units pop up with their wrong TOEs in AARs (see linked Posts).
Ski Battalion 41.
Ski Battalion 42

[Wiedrock]

Edited. If you find errors, let me know.

[Wiedrock]

while it's not perfect, it seems to line up pretty darn close to the TOE you posted (though there's even some discrepancies between the list in sections I and II; for example, I. calls for 4 ski battalions, but the the total manpower and 50 mm mortar count in section II imply only 3 battalions.)

Calculated it a while back it is 3, as you say so just a typo (same issue in other sources using this numbers).

interestingly, there's also a TOE in the unit data for a a "45 Mountain Brigade" (OB# 2265), that lines up exactly with loadout of the ski brigade here. Adding to the weirdness, This TOE is also included in the TOE chain for ski brigades.

When doing Mountain Divisions I've found this two quotes:

Four naval rifle brigades and two ski brigades were redesignated to mountain brigades in January 1945 under the 126th and 127th light rifle corps, which were themselves then redesignated mountain rifle corps.

The standard shtats for ski brigades and naval rifle/infantry brigades included 76-mm regimental guns
[the presence of the guns comes probably from the conversion/redesignation from/into other brigades, or ski brigade's TOE was amended further - altough German intl I have BArch RH 2/2522 does not support a change in TOE until ~late 1944 at least].

[..]

For operations in the Finnish/Arctic theater [...]126th and 127th Light Mountain Rifle Corps [...] was composed of 2–4 maneuver brigades, which included ski brigades (that operated as light rifle brigades in the absence of snow), naval rifle brigades, and naval infantry brigades.

[DrHiramTemple]

while it's not perfect, it seems to line up pretty darn close to the TOE you posted (though there's even some discrepancies between the list in sections I and II; for example, I. calls for 4 ski battalions, but the the total manpower and 50 mm mortar count in section II imply only 3 battalions.)

Calculated it a while back it is 3, as you say so just a typo (same issue in other sources using this numbers).

interestingly, there's also a TOE in the unit data for a a "45 Mountain Brigade" (OB# 2265), that lines up exactly with loadout of the ski brigade here. Adding to the weirdness, This TOE is also included in the TOE chain for ski brigades.

When doing Mountain Divisions I've found this two quotes:

Four naval rifle brigades and two ski brigades were redesignated to mountain brigades in January 1945 under the 126th and 127th light rifle corps, which were themselves then redesignated mountain rifle corps.

The standard shtats for ski brigades and naval rifle/infantry brigades included 76-mm regimental guns
[the presence of the guns comes probably from the conversion/redesignation from/into other brigades, or ski brigade's TOE was amended further - altough German intl I have BArch RH 2/2522 does not support a change in TOE until ~late 1944 at least].

[..]

For operations in the Finnish/Arctic theater [...]126th and 127th Light Mountain Rifle Corps [...] was composed of 2–4 maneuver brigades, which included ski brigades (that operated as light rifle brigades in the absence of snow), naval rifle brigades, and naval infantry brigades.

oh interesting, so there is a connection between the mountain and ski formations. Appreciate you following up on all this even after all this time!