Figuring out Leningrad

[Crashingtree]

Hey everyone,

New player here enjoying my first run at these scenarios. I really appreciated the tips on my other thread, so was hoping to get a little more advice

I had a great time with my first playthrough of Road to Leningrad. Having first scored a slight loss, I then re-did my last few turns and was able to score a draw against the normal AI. I can't seem to re-work it to score a win, meaning that I suspect my core mistakes were earlier in the game or more fundamental.

Here was my general strategy and a few screenshots:

1. My initial thrusts were toward Riga and toward Vilnius. The latter was my primary focus, designed to capture and make the Vilnius Daugavpils double tracked railways operational as soon as possible.
2. Having achieved that, my second phase involved minor pushes to Talinn (left flank) and Veliki Luki (right flank), but the majority of my army headed toward Pskov. See link - I thought things were going fine at this point. https://imgur.com/a/gZj0kKX
3. My final phase may have been mis-executed. I created a nice pocket in my approaches to Leningrad, but wish I had push more forces on the right flank as I realized at the end that Leningrad was simply too well-defended to take. Here is turn 11 before I make that thrust: https://imgur.com/a/APAGTdn
4. Here is where I was at the start of turn 16. I was able to capture Shlisselburg and Kobona in this turn, but that wasn't enough to win. https://imgur.com/a/KLPg5KR

I'd welcome any advice or critiques on my approach! I thought I did the basics right (e.g. making sure HQs were in range, trying to reduce movement penalties), and thought I managed supply reasonably well. But it looks like other AARs make a ton more progress north than I do.

Please help!

[Jango32]

I believe the Road to Leningrad scenario plays the same as AGN in '41 GC. Essentially, it's a matter of speed. Daugavpils and Vilnius by turn 1, either take Pskov on turn 2 or be in a position to take Pskov on turn 3, advance to the Plyussa river line on turn 3, cross the Luga river on turn 4 or turn 5.

From then on it should be smooth sailing. Estonia should be a low priority target, either relegate it to infantry or use a division like Totenkopf to move from Riga to Parnu and then to Tallinn.

[Crashingtree]

I believe the Road to Leningrad scenario plays the same as AGN in '41 GC. Essentially, it's a matter of speed. Daugavpils and Vilnius by turn 1, either take Pskov on turn 2 or be in a position to take Pskov on turn 3, advance to the Plyussa river line on turn 3, cross the Luga river on turn 4 or turn 5.

From then on it should be smooth sailing. Estonia should be a low priority target, either relegate it to infantry or use a division like Totenkopf to move from Riga to Parnu and then to Tallinn.

Thanks Jango32. That's helpful and I may have been too slow. I did pause a few turns (1) let my units rest, as my armored/motorized units had really high fatigue and low CPP, and (2) to let the infantry catch up, and (3) to wait out some heavy rains.

So I may have over-indexed on that. How do you balance the need for speed with the need to build CPP back up / bad weather?

[Jango32]

Only 2 mobile units actually need to fight on turn 1. 3rd Motorised to clear Daugavpils of airborne brigades and Totenkopf attacking Riga are the only divisions that need to attack, all the others can be used to flip hexes.

[TallBlondJohn]

I posted this on another Leningrad question:

Playing Road to Leningrad against the AI on 100% you should be able to take Leningrad, sometimes with a turn or two to spare. The secret for me was to learn how to conserve and regain CPP. It was very strange to stop for a complete turn and recharge rather than batter through mud, but the improvement in German units performance was remarkable.

My RtL Strategy:

Turn one, use the panzers in two groups, one north, the other due east. Drive deep and open up the key railways lines to Riga and the dual line via Vilnius to Pskov. Encircle Russian units in the middle but you wont get that many. Use 2 regiments of the SS to grab Riga. Get the ports in west Latvia to isolate units there if you can.
Now keep the panzers in the two groups, one moving up to Pskov, the other along the coast. Clearing the pockets but prioritize getting the dual rail fixed and moving the infantry up while conserving/rebuilding CPP (don't use every movement point and end in a friendly hex where possible). Let the Russians make a stand in southern Estonia, it won't go well for them.
Send the coast panzers north heading to break across the Narva river. You can usually create a pocket against Lake Peipus, maybe a smaller one against the Gulf of Finland. Then get over the Narva, push east through the good terrain and crush the Luga line from the north and south (the Panzer reinforcements will help here). BTW This wont work against a human as they wont leave the Narva line without a garrison (unless they are suicidal). If rain falls - and it usually does - rest units if you can.
If possible, keep an infantry corps reasonably fresh and to use it to drive on the lake ports east of Leningrad and isolate the city. You will need to use panzers as well.
Then mop up and man the Volkhov line. Game over man!

[Crashingtree]

Thanks everyone!

GOOD news: I secured an Axis minor victory.

Bad news: As you can see linked here:https://imgur.com/a/j7y3Ocz, it was more of a technical victory than anything else, as my lines were totally falling apart and many units were isolated (see northeast)! That photo actually makes it seem a lot worse than it was, as linked here you can see where I was on turn 14. https://imgur.com/a/im1Yy5Y

Versus my prior approach, I basically just kept pushing in this run-through and didn't really stop to recover any CPP. Even when the rains came down, I kept moving. Jango32, I tried to keep up with the pace you suggested. Deprioritizing Estonia was very useful too.

Playing Road to Leningrad against the AI on 100% you should be able to take Leningrad, sometimes with a turn or two to spare. The secret for me was to learn how to conserve and regain CPP. It was very strange to stop for a complete turn and recharge rather than batter through mud, but the improvement in German units performance was remarkable.

Interesting - that sort of aligns with my initial strategy but I found I just ran out of time! Is there something I am missing? I found if I rested my panzers at all, I don't make enough progress fast enough.

Also - really minor point but I was totally confused. Can anyone help me understand why the selected unit can't do a deliberate attack to the hex immediately northwest? https://imgur.com/a/gwZgDZE It can seem to do an deliberate attack to the hex to the southeast but not south

Thank you so much!

[FortTell]

Also - really minor point but I was totally confused. Can anyone help me understand why the selected unit can't do a deliberate attack to the hex immediately northwest? It can seem to do an deliberate attack to the hex to the southeast but not south

Because the river is in the way. Attacking across a river costs additional movement points. And you have a major (wide) river in they way, so it costs even more.
The exact number is +4 MP for a regular river (for a total of 20) and +12 for a wide river (total 28).
Infantry needs +1 (7), +2 (8) MP respectively.
These numbers can be worse if the wide river has ice level between 5 and 7.

[Jango32]

You can rest your mobile units as soon as you've secured a bridgehead/crossing over the Luga river, ideally infantry will not be far behind and they can take over that bridgehead for a turn or two so your mobile units can relax for a bit.

Oh, also, switch infantry to PzGr 4 if available. Why not take advantage of the extra CPP regen and fatigue removal?

[Jango32]

This is a '41 GC player vs player game of mine. I managed to cross Luga on turn 3, but due to some unfortunate events I managed to relieve the mobile units from front line duty with infantry only now on turn 5. I resumed the drive to Leningrad next turn and reassigned Totenkopf to XXXI Motorised Corps now that it was in HQ range again.

[TallBlondJohn]

Notice how many of Jango's units still have high CV - learning how to conserve/recover CPP is the key to the opening of Barbarossa. There is no need to push east of Staraya Russa, focus on Leningrad. You do need to flip hexes and secure your flanks, so using a security division to clear out the Baltics is good. Once at Leningrad you need to decide whether to isolate the city by capturing the east shore ports (tricky unless your opponent really drops the ball) or the west shore (much easier but you have to crack the Neva river line - that's where you need fresh infantry and some experience in river crossing (you wont have enough movement to get across after a deliberate attack, so you need to save a unit to make the crossing). Don't try to do both strategies.

I love Road to Leningrad, I've played it more than all the other scenarios put together. Its a great one day match.

[Crashingtree]

Wow! That is some good progress by end of T5. Here is where I was at the start of turn 6, so just a little behind. https://imgur.com/a/9Cgza7H

Thanks FortTell - that answers my question very well about the river and makes sense. Thank you!

TallBlondJohn and Jango32, thank you for the wisdom and advice! A few things I'm taking from the screenshot are:

-Hit the baltics with fewer divisions, and let SEC divisions clean up. I was allocating a few inventory divisions to clean up and that may have been wasteful
-Don't push too far east. Not even to capture Velikie Luki?
-Push to the Luga river and then regain CPP for armored divisions

One difference I see with my games is that the Soviets always seem to leave formidable defensive belts in the approaches to the Luga that take a while to break. You screenshot doesn't seem to have that. Is that because you created big pockets beforehand and destroyed lots of units? I'm never sure how much of a focus to make destroying units vs. capturing VPs.

Thank you!

[Crashingtree]

Upon further reflection I think I probably can also sharpen my hex-flipping skills. I keep looking at your screenshots and thinking “how the heck did they get that far!?”

Generally speaking I try to:
1. Attack with infantry first to break through, starting with my infantry units furthest behind the line. Then I move infantry closer to the line, and then last motorized units.
2. Try to advance on roads, on hexes without swamps or heavy woods
3. Try to create gaps of at least 3 hexes to minimize penalties
4. Try to attack with 10x advantage and hasty attacks in order to minimize combat delays
5. I generally motorize 1-2 infantry divisions at turn 1 for an extra boost

If there are other secrets for advancing that you use, I welcome any feedback!

[TallBlondJohn]

Only push out to VK as part of an effort to protect the flank - don't treat it as a VP target. As long as you are not extending the number of hexes you need to cover to keep your flank covered (from the screenshot you seem to be quite open, usually the AI won't punish you but a player will), go east but its very low priority.

Generally what you are doing is correct, but:

1. Using infantry to open holes, this early in the war 2:1 face value odds is fine (3:1 is usually ok for hasty attacks). More just drains CPP out of your units. Don't worry about combat delays unless you are planning a special dash to a particular objective.
2. Use Panzers to flip hexes - that is what they are for, not fighting unless essential and certainly not in heavy woods. Note how Jango32 sent the SS divison to the Gulf of Finland to open a path for the infantry to follow as part of a plan to get across the Narva before the Soviets garrison it. While you have three divisions slogging through central Estonia, accumulating fatigue and using CPP - yes that is wasteful.

The whole purpose of the panzers in 1941-1942 is to clear paths so that the infantry can get forward in friendly held hexes, preserving their combat strength. Don't move use every movement point and end the infantry move on hexes flipped the previous turn so that they can rest a bit. That way you make the same or better progress, but regain CPP. Once you master this, you will advance at the same rate yet have a much stronger force when its time to storm something. Maybe run a turn a couple of times trying different methods?

[Crashingtree]

Thanks TallBlondJohn! Those are great tips and made a difference. On my third run-through, I scored myself a minor victory but with a performance that I feel reasonably solid about. https://imgur.com/a/KKlYqzC.

I think the most important learnings for me were:

-Ignoring the VPs in the east and pushing north with more strength
-VERY helpful to get one of the motorized corps to blaze through Estonia via Tartu and push to the Narva. Great access point to outflank the Luga defensive lines the soviets had
-Resting the motorized divisions with friendly hexes surrounding them

Things I am still figuring out:

-How to better guard my flanks. The soviets surprised me in turns 14-16 with a big attack on my right flank, and severed the dual track railway for a couple of turns. Pretty smart, really. I tried to have an infantry division guarding every 7-10 hexes or so, but I think a smarter move would have been to break them down into 3 separate units to get a wider net
-Attacking major cities. I saw another thread on this but I simply don't understand how you can get the Leningrad VPs when it has CV of 600+ Even the NW Leningrad VP had several hundred CV. I think it's a combination of (1) isolating through naval interdiction. I haven't done that as I'm still using AI Air, (2) bringing the right support units. Is that right?

Thank you for the help! Feel much better about this scenario and I think I am ready to move on to the destruction of the SW front

[TallBlondJohn]

Well done, big improvement! Rest the infantry as well when you can, you need to get a leapfrog system going where divs move forward while others rest.

Flanks must be covered, a single Soviet cavalry division in the rear forces you to reverse direction and in RtL you just cant do that. Having railway lines broken is just as bad, you loose a whole turn of progress which will kill you in campaign scenarios. You need to guard with a division every 3 or 4 hexes so that the ZOC is continuous, 7-10 is too thin. Which drains infantry, but hopefully they can rest. If you can get a straight line down from Staraya Russa to VL that minimizes the front you have to man, which is why don't go too far east (its also very difficult to supply units on the Lovat river).

In WitE2, if you aren't lucky enough to catch urban hexes almost undefended then its basically a waste of time attacking without isolating them first. There are posts dedicated to the art of capturing cities. Basically, you need at least 2-3 stacks of rested infantry with attached pioneers and artillery. 1:1 face odds may work if you have lots of support units and airpower (Stukas in the 1941campaign should be concentrated for Leningrad). So isolate Leningrad and then you should be able to move in a hex at a time with the powerful stacks you needed to get across the river in the first place, then attack from the north down to avoid the big river penalties. But everywhere else you may be very stretched... which is why pockets are good to create and clear as they reduce the number of units facing you drastically.

In campaigns if you properly isolate a city and just besiege it for a few months it usually falls quite easily - its CV will suddenly collapse. Stalingrad. In the case of ports (Odessa and Sevastopol) you need to use naval interdiction to mine the harbours and bomb the ships. This takes planning, like transferring the very useful Baltic flying boat unit to the Black Sea. How realistic this is is up for debate.

[Crashingtree]

Thanks TallBlondJohn! Your help has been massively valuable.

Those are good tips to remember. I just completed the Destruction of the SW front scenario and logged a minor victory with 1.5 - 1 ratio on my first go, which felt solid. Very useful to understand how to leverage SUs to help conquer cities.

Onto the next one! Slowly building up to a full campaign, but now I have to learn the air war It's been on AI but that's next on my learning list.

[TallBlondJohn]

I've been playing since launch day and I never bother with the air war against the AI - I just don't like the system and it evens the match up a bit. You just need to understand how to assign air groups to armies, assign stances and set up naval patrols when besieging a port.

The supply system (depot placement and priority) is worth studying and doing manually IMO. Then get used to command capacity (don't change HQ too much, units get a nerf the next turn) and support units (city crackers).

But the important thing is to have fun. Don't be afraid to try the big campaigns - they play out very differently from the 'Road to' scenarios - basically due to the AI teleporting units. It really likes to hold Leningrad, so you will have to reinforce AGN.

[Crashingtree]

Awesome. I have actually been afraid of trying the big campaigns until I did most of the smaller scenarios, so that's good to know