Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

[Zemke]

These are basic questions to the playtesters or perhaps others who have cracked the code on the logistics piece of this game.

What I do know, and it seems common sense:
1. Closer to RR is better.
2. Closer to depots is better.
3. HQ on depot is better, higher level the better.
4. FBD on Depot is better still.

What I am trying to figure out is what are the constraints, or chock points on why a unit is not getting the supplies it requests. As a Commander I can ask my G-4 (Logistics Officer) and he would tell me Sir, due to the shortage of trucks and the distance from the depot we need to move supplies from, we can only move X and we need Y, the delta is Z. In real life I could get a pretty clear idea what the problem is and what I need to fix it. In this case, move closer to the depot, get more trucks or a combination of the two.

Also, if I prioritize a specific organization, say priority 4 supply for X Corps, and all other Corps are PS2, and I have a Division on refit, I would think that one division in that high priority corps should be getting pretty much what it needs assuming the corps has the trucks to at least supply, one Division fully.

1. Do Units trace supply through their next higher Command then to the depot? This matters because where the higher HQ is in relation to a depot would then be pretty darn important.
2. Does a "Green Rail" mean I am good on rail capacity? If so, as all of my rail line are green, then the bottleneck is not capacity, but at the depot or from the HQ/units to the depot, which would be trucks.

[loki100]

I know you are aware of this, but forget WiTE1, esp for logistics so distance to rail way per se has no meaning.

2/3/4 yep

Ok the system works on 3 main parts. Depots receive, store, and send out freight, but have a finite capacity. Units receive and store freight (and you set their demand in part by the HQ priority and in part by what you are up to - ie how much they used up moving/fighting), rails deliver freight to depots (but has a finite capacity).

So you have 2 capacity constraints - the ability of rails to deliver - and this is both per hex (usage) and relates to how many 'trains' can be generated by your level 2 or higher railyards. The other is your ability of your depots to process.

Now the effective cap is the worst of that pair, so if your depots can't process all that could be delivered, then the trains don't run, if the trains can't deliver all the depots can process then the depots are under-used.

Supply trace is unit-depot, the HQs set supply priority for their units (& affect depot capacity) but its not unit-HQ-HQ-depot.

Green can be superb, your rail system is a wonder of the modern world or ... its pretty worrying. You simply can't deliver what is needed (lack of level 2 railyards?) and all that depot capacity goes to waste.

Now there is a last part to the puzzle. If units can't get the supply they need out of the local depot system, they go looking (up to 30 hexes), using their unit trucks to meet the demand you set. Trucks doing this undermine both MP and CV.

[Nix77]

What sets the need for a depot to receive freight, if it's far away from any units but still has a medium supply priority? Lets imagine 4 depots, more than 30 hexes apart in an isolated test bench with a single rail:

NSS (SP0) - Depot A (SP3) - Depot B (SP2) - Depot C (SP4)

There's a unit near C demanding supply:
- will depot A&B still send+receive freight, or does the freight just go directly to C?
- All the depots will likely store freight, according to priority I guess?
- If there's a unit also near B, would it gain less supply than the unit near C because of lower Supply Priority, even though it's closer to freight source?

Hell, there's a gazillion more questions, maybe I should just isolate Riga as a separate supply network and start testing

[loki100]

problem is there is no answer, in that there are no ready perfect solutions (though there are some bad ones).

so a depot ignores unit demand, it lives in its own little world where its only interest is in getting the freight you told it to.

So if you put a depot on Potsdam and priority #4 it'll fill up, even if you are approaching Moscow.

Now if it just remains full, it won't take any more as it can't process it.

The bits you influence, priority for depot sets when it will take supply in the logistics phase and how often it will attempt this (till its full), so in that sense priority doesn't affect storage. Storage is the product of receipt>allocation to units.

units go to the nearest depot and then further if they can't meet their (you have set) demand. They don't care what the depot priority is, only location. But they have to interact with a depot (somewhere) to get supply --- I think this is the big conceptual difference to WiTE1 (more than finite rails etc, its keeping this relationship in mind).

[Zemke]

So HQs are not part of the tracing, got it. Unit to depot, got that.

CAn you answer this. If my rail is showing green, which 90% of the time it is, (unless I move a unit by rail), then that rail is moving everything it can no problem or put another way, moving what depots demand no problem. So rail does not seem to be a constraint or appears not to be, OR is it I don't have that many trains running because my depots are not processing the freight they already get because their own railyard is inadequate level 1 railyards.

You cannot upgrade railyards, right?

Is a unit using its own trucks or its Corps trucks?

[Bamilus]

Not trying to hijack but sort of related question. If I have a bunch of depots at 0, will freight still flow through them via the railyard? For example, can I slowly turn my Germany depots to 0 as I move out of Germany? Like, is there any reason I need Warsaw and Brest Litovsk to be above 0 once I have a supply chain all the way to Smolensk? I see a lot of my depots are pulling freight from Berlin but I'm not sure if that's good or bad

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Not trying to hijack but sort of related question. If I have a bunch of depots at 0, will freight still flow through them via the railyard? For example, can I slowly turn my Germany depots to 0 as I move out of Germany? Like, is there any reason I need Warsaw and Brest Litovsk to be above 0 once I have a supply chain all the way to Smolensk? I see a lot of my depots are pulling freight from Berlin but I'm not sure if that's good or bad

This is sort of my question as well. Could someone perhaps lay out the Depot system they would use between Berlin and Smolensk assuming the front line is east of Smolensk and you have a double track line running through Brest-Minsk-Orsha.

[gw15]

Use the AI assist?

[NavalNewZ]

Not trying to hijack

Hijack succesful...what gets me is the 'puzzle' aspect of this. I roll my eyes when i see people who think that the detail in games like this makes it more 'realistic'. I disagree..it's a bunch of puzzles to figure out how the system works, based upon the designers intent. In practice, its a a lot of investigation that involves greater understanding of the system, and [hopefully] the history involved.

[Nix77]

Ok... so basically I dont really need those depots in Germany at any other level than 0 after Riga/Kaunas/Minsk/B-L/Lvov are online, unless the rails to those forward depots start getting cramped? Ofcourse any leftover airfields that still have aircraft need some juice still.

I've been "chaining" the depots and havent seen any congestion or forward depots nearing cap yet, maybe it's just me doing it wrong!

Trying to figure out the port network is a bit of mystery too, it's probably a good way to relieve the rail traffic if set up properly?

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Not trying to hijack but sort of related question. If I have a bunch of depots at 0, will freight still flow through them via the railyard? For example, can I slowly turn my Germany depots to 0 as I move out of Germany? Like, is there any reason I need Warsaw and Brest Litovsk to be above 0 once I have a supply chain all the way to Smolensk? I see a lot of my depots are pulling freight from Berlin but I'm not sure if that's good or bad

Yes, freight flows through depots at 0 priority.

Yes, once you have a functioning supply system at Smolensk and other forward locations, you can dial down the depots in the rear to a lower priority.

Yes, you will always see freight flowing to depots from Berlin. It is a National Supply Source.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Zemke

...
CAn you answer this. If my rail is showing green, which 90% of the time it is, (unless I move a unit by rail), then that rail is moving everything it can no problem or put another way, moving what depots demand no problem. So rail does not seem to be a constraint or appears not to be, OR is it I don't have that many trains running because my depots are not processing the freight they already get because their own railyard is inadequate level 1 railyards.

...

lets talk about the green rails.

What you see at the start of the turn is the residual usage from the last turn (ground and logistic phases), some of that usage gets cleared but a portion can remain, especially if you put a lot of units down a track it can take 3-4 turns to clear.

So green more or less means your usage is clearing in the end-turn routines.

Whether this is good or bad really depends.

It can be good, you've basically got the 3 bits in balance, so you have enough trains (from your railyard capacity), enough space for them to move on easily (railway capacity) and your depots are filling up (depot capacity).

Wonderful [;)]

But it can also be green because you don't have enough trains to make use of the potential railway or your depots lack the capacity to process any more freight so don't ask for it.

In that case, not so good [:)]

But it is getting those 3 bits into balance in the context of a changing combat situation (& possibly enemy interventions) that is the challenge.

ORIGINAL: Zemke

...
You cannot upgrade railyards, right?

Is a unit using its own trucks or its Corps trucks?

No, if it is a level 1 railyard it stays there, so the only dynamic is repair/damage

unit trucks, there are relatively few in the HQs as such and mostly being used for their own movement

ORIGINAL: NavalNewZ

...what gets me is the 'puzzle' aspect of this. I roll my eyes when i see people who think that the detail in games like this makes it more 'realistic'. I disagree..it's a bunch of puzzles to figure out how the system works, based upon the designers intent. In practice, its a a lot of investigation that involves greater understanding of the system, and [hopefully] the history involved.

I don't think its a puzzle in the conventional sense, that would imply there is a perfect solution waiting to be found. There are better and worse solutions definitely but as an eg Carlkay is perfectly happy to run his axis logistics in 1941 without super depots while I preplan where they are going to be.

The other bits to bear in mind, the system has in-built shortages, you can overcome the shortage that may arise from depot capacity but neither side at any distance to their NSS can overcome the delivery shortages (trains, rail lines and trucks). Also the situation is always changing, demand for supply is not just a product of your unit deployments and your choices - your opponent has agency too

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Not trying to hijack but sort of related question. If I have a bunch of depots at 0, will freight still flow through them via the railyard? For example, can I slowly turn my Germany depots to 0 as I move out of Germany? Like, is there any reason I need Warsaw and Brest Litovsk to be above 0 once I have a supply chain all the way to Smolensk? I see a lot of my depots are pulling freight from Berlin but I'm not sure if that's good or bad

This is sort of my question as well. Could someone perhaps lay out the Depot system they would use between Berlin and Smolensk assuming the front line is east of Smolensk and you have a double track line running through Brest-Minsk-Orsha.

What I would have is Warsaw left at #1 (anything Warsaw-Berlin set to 0), Brest-Litovsk (in the situation you describe) probably at #1 (I may have reduced it to #0), Baranovichi (ditto, it would still be #1 if I had nearby airbases in use, longer range LB can work from here), Minsk 2, Orsha 2 (maybe 3 - again this is all so situational), Smolensk 4 (& set up as a super depot).

So that is quite pared down, Minsk would have AGC so has a lot of capacity and may well be heavily in use, Vitebsk the same (even if off the notionally direct line). I'd then have as many small depots operating behind the front as possible - the different mindset in this situation is I'm assuming some stalling of the advance but how many really depends on what sort of rail repair network I have.

If I was the Soviets in 1944, I'd be putting a depot on every location with a railyard, so none of this minimalist stuff. Thats because I am trying to supply around 7million men and a lot of tanks and want depot capacity stretching some distance back from the actual front.

This is why - I think - its so hard to give a clear answer, even at the level of depot network, priorities and so on, its so situational

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Not trying to hijack but sort of related question. If I have a bunch of depots at 0, will freight still flow through them via the railyard? For example, can I slowly turn my Germany depots to 0 as I move out of Germany? Like, is there any reason I need Warsaw and Brest Litovsk to be above 0 once I have a supply chain all the way to Smolensk? I see a lot of my depots are pulling freight from Berlin but I'm not sure if that's good or bad

This is sort of my question as well. Could someone perhaps lay out the Depot system they would use between Berlin and Smolensk assuming the front line is east of Smolensk and you have a double track line running through Brest-Minsk-Orsha.

What I would have is Warsaw left at #1 (anything Warsaw-Berlin set to 0), Brest-Litovsk (in the situation you describe) probably at #1 (I may have reduced it to #0), Baranovichi (ditto, it would still be #1 if I had nearby airbases in use, longer range LB can work from here), Minsk 2, Orsha 2 (maybe 3 - again this is all so situational), Smolensk 4 (& set up as a super depot).

So that is quite pared down, Minsk would have AGC so has a lot of capacity and may well be heavily in use, Vitebsk the same (even if off the notionally direct line). I'd then have as many small depots operating behind the front as possible - the different mindset in this situation is I'm assuming some stalling of the advance but how many really depends on what sort of rail repair network I have.

If I was the Soviets in 1944, I'd be putting a depot on every location with a railyard, so none of this minimalist stuff. Thats because I am trying to supply around 7million men and a lot of tanks and want depot capacity stretching some distance back from the actual front.

This is why - I think - its so hard to give a clear answer, even at the level of depot network, priorities and so on, its so situational

Thanks for the tips. This part "Thats because I am trying to supply around 7million men and a lot of tanks and want depot capacity stretching some distance back from the actual front." was especially helpful in thinking about the way units get their supplies.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

...
Thanks for the tips. This part "Thats because I am trying to supply around 7million men and a lot of tanks and want depot capacity stretching some distance back from the actual front." was especially helpful in thinking about the way units get their supplies.

its worth messing around with Vistula-Berlin, its inevitable that most of the initial discussion is around the 1941 start but that is both a first rate scenario in its own right and allows you to poke around with the logistics system in a situation where demand is as much a problem as supply.

you'll see differences that come from the super-depot concept much more readily as well as how capturing (or denying) the larger railyards becomes a core part of operational planning

[dudefan]

@loki100

what is counted in for train number aka railyard capacity. Only the railyard capacity in the end depot? Or of all the depots on the railon the line? Or all railyard on the Line even without depots? What is the most important railyard.


Simply put:
How do I know that my problem is that I have not enough trains aka railyard capacity and what can I do to fix it? Focus on more depots on railyard on the way? Focus on the final depot in the end?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: dudefan

@loki100

what is counted in for train number aka railyard capacity. Only the railyard capacity in the end depot? Or of all the depots on the railon the line? Or all railyard on the Line even without depots? What is the most important railyard.


Simply put:
How do I know that my problem is that I have not enough trains aka railyard capacity and what can I do to fix it? Focus on more depots on railyard on the way? Focus on the final depot in the end?

usual answer, its variable. Any given rail hex can draw rail capacity from rail yards up to 30 (rail) hexes away. If you select F2 and a hex, you'll see this number at the top rhs of the screen.

ok, now the but. In practice, esp in the logistics phase, some of those railyards will be claimed elsewhere in the system so what is available at a given point can drop as the system demands rail cap.

All that matters for a journey is the rail cap where you are starting it (this is one reason the NSS gets a bonus in this regard - it lubricates the whoe system)

there is not much you can do to fix it - as you can't build level 2 or better rail yards (a new depot will create a level 1 depot - ie processing capacity etc but not new train stock). All you can do is make sure what you have is repaired and its worth making sure such rail yards are incorporated into your network (so be prepared to repair a spur to a given location)

[squatter]

Hope OP doesn't mind me joining in the thread with some queries of my own.

I use CAPS below not in anger, but merely for the questions I'm getting to stand out.

One of the main issues for me with logistics is trying to diagnose what's happening.

I want to know a) are my units getting the supply they need? b) are my depots getting the supply they need? c) are my rail lines running properly and delivering enough tonnes?

For an example in the image below:

The yellow arrow is Siversky, south of Leningrad, Aug 31, 1941.

It's a level one railyard depot, which we know has intrinsic capacity of 10k tonnes. This has been raised to 30k by an army HQ parking on it.

As we can see from the image, the depot received 12.6k tonnes, 41% of its capacity.

QUESTION 1: WHY DID THIS PRIORITY LEVEL 4 DEPOT ONLY RECEIVE 41% OF ITS CAPACITY?

So I turn on logistics info to try and diagnose:

We can also see that the rail useage in the hex is 2306 tonnes, well below its 30k double line capacity.

QUESTION 2: HOW DOES THE HEX RAIL USEAGE OF 2.3k TONNES TALLY WITH THE 12.6k TONNES THE DEPOT RECEIVED? HOW DID THE 9.7k DIFFERENTIAL ARRIVE TO THE DEPOT?

QUESTION 3: IF THIS DEPOT IS CONNECTED BY A DOUBLE RAIL LINE (CAPACITY 30k), WHY DID IT ONLY RECEIVE 12.6k? HOW DO I DIAGNOSE THIS? NO PART OF MY RAIL NETWORK IS HIGHLIGHTED RED, THEREFORE THERE IS SPARE RAIL CAP EVERYWHERE ACROSS THE NETWORK. YET THIS DEPOT ONLY RECEIVED 41% OF ITS CAPACITY

QUESTION 4: MANY OF THE UNITS AROUND SIKERSY ARE LACKING FUEL OR SUPPLY YET THE DEPOT IS RETAINING MORE SUPPLY THAN IT IS SENDING OUT. IF NEARBY UNITS ARE STILL NOT FULLY REPLENISHED, WHY IS THE DEPOT STOCKPILING SUPPLY RATHER THAN SENDING IT OUT?

QUESTION 5: DO WE HAVE A YARDSTICK FOR HOW MANY TONNES OF FREIGHT INDIVIDUAL UNITS REQUIRE TO OPERATE? HOW MANY TONNES DOES A FULL STRENGTH PANZER DIVISION REQUIRE PER TURN? HOW MANY TONNES FOR A FULL STRENGTH INF DIV?

QUESTION 6: IS THERE A WAY OF SEEING MY NETWORK'S FREIGHT GENERATION CAPACITY (ie total national supply?) AND COMPARING THAT TO MY ARMY'S TOTAL REQUIREMENT?

[loki100]

I'll try:

1 - you partly answer this yourself, but basically just because you have created the capacity to receive freight does not solve the challenge of its delivery

2 - poorly, what you see at the start of the turn is last turns usage (move and logistics) - the amount the routine removes at the end of the logistics phase, so its a penalty placed in that hex for the current turn to reflect over-use of rail capacity last turn (think of it, esp on a single track line as you have too many trains at one end or the other)

3 - this is where the rail yard capacity comes in, just because you have a working train line doesn't mean you have a working train to go on it. Its also where the super-depot comes in, an unmoved NKPS on that location will act like a huge flag to the system shouting 'send your trains to me' - my best guess is that such a set up would indeed see that depot fill up

edit: but at a cost, other depots in the same area will now get less as a result of this diversion

4 - units demand supply on the basis of their supply priority, this sets how much as a % of their total possible demand they actually get, but it looks like the depot is in balance, its sending out what it had in store and replenishing its stocks (the green/blue/red lines)

5 - yes, look at the CR or the unit detail tab, that'll give you some idea what a given unit type wants (you may need to add in unit to missing to received) - but remember what it needs will vary, it will want more freight if its refitting (manpower, vehicles), more if its fighting (restock ammunition etc) so what you are looking at is a situational value

6 - no as its irrelevant. The ability to use rail capacity on a given hex is driven by how much unused railyard capacity (ie level 2 or more) is available within 30 hexes. So both numbers have little value. I guess you use the CR and work out how many 2+ railyards there are in the Soviet Union which will get you the first number but in practice it would have nil value, your capacity to move rail freight along the south of the Caucasus (as an eg) is utterly disconnected from the train capacity in Moscow

edit 2 - keep in mind, what is being modelled is a shortage situation, in terms of the ability to supply the potential demand of your army

[Bamilus]

Thanks Loki. Super helpful as always