Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

[tyronec]

Overall a pretty rough turn.

A rough turn for Axis too with even my best leaders failing to hold up against the Soviet bludgeon.

[Wiedrock]

Using

• AI Depot,
• AI SU assignments,
• only bother about FBD/NKPS construction units,
• leave TB movements as they are,
• Auto Plane Loadout,
• AI Air Assist

Leaving anything to the AI in this game will massively screw you over.

A I i s t h e f u t u r e .

[M60A3TTS]

I wouldn't say it is decisive however a close game is going to be determined by the cumulative effect of small actions, and the Soviets are killing 1,000-5,000 men a turn with GA plus as reported turning potential lost battles into wins.

Coming back to this comment, it is very questionable that you took losses approaching 5k from GA on any turn. The Soviet level bombers simply aren't that lethal, and RedJohn hasn't shared any screenie that shows anything close to 5k. I have to believe he would have posted one had he hit those numbers.

It IS possible you were looking at the ground loss data for the start of the turn with the default filter setting of Since Last Turn rather than Soviet Air Phase.

I could be wrong, and if so I'd love to see a screenshot and know how this kind of damage was done.

[AlbertN]

I wouldn't say it is decisive however a close game is going to be determined by the cumulative effect of small actions, and the Soviets are killing 1,000-5,000 men a turn with GA plus as reported turning potential lost battles into wins.

Coming back to this comment, it is very questionable that you took losses approaching 5k from GA on any turn. The Soviet level bombers simply aren't that lethal, and RedJohn hasn't shared any screenie that shows anything close to 5k. I have to believe he would have posted one had he hit those numbers.

It IS possible you were looking at the ground loss data for the start of the turn with the default filter setting of Since Last Turn rather than Soviet Air Phase.

I could be wrong, and if so I'd love to see a screenshot and know how this kind of damage was done.

These are from my game.
1000+ men are doable, but there is also the panzer factor, the fatigue factor too, the ammo factor that is spent if the ground unit shoots AA... all stacks up and pretty much easens a ground attack later on.

Screenshots below of a full screen, apologies for the disruption of the AAR with stuff from another game - I can erase them if they are a punch in the eye.

[tyronec]

Coming back to this comment, it is very questionable that you took losses approaching 5k from GA on any turn.

As I recall that is what showed up for during the Soviet air phase, similar to what AlbertN reports.
We should be getting to those turns soon.

[RedJohn]

I wouldn't say it is decisive however a close game is going to be determined by the cumulative effect of small actions, and the Soviets are killing 1,000-5,000 men a turn with GA plus as reported turning potential lost battles into wins.

Coming back to this comment, it is very questionable that you took losses approaching 5k from GA on any turn. The Soviet level bombers simply aren't that lethal, and RedJohn hasn't shared any screenie that shows anything close to 5k. I have to believe he would have posted one had he hit those numbers.

It IS possible you were looking at the ground loss data for the start of the turn with the default filter setting of Since Last Turn rather than Soviet Air Phase.

I could be wrong, and if so I'd love to see a screenshot and know how this kind of damage was done.

Well, spoilers, but we won't be getting to those halcyon bombing days for a while. So here's some previews:





These are what showed under "soviet air phase" losses.

[M60A3TTS]

I look forward to being enlightened!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I wouldn't say it is decisive however a close game is going to be determined by the cumulative effect of small actions, and the Soviets are killing 1,000-5,000 men a turn with GA plus as reported turning potential lost battles into wins.

Coming back to this comment, it is very questionable that you took losses approaching 5k from GA on any turn. The Soviet level bombers simply aren't that lethal, and RedJohn hasn't shared any screenie that shows anything close to 5k. I have to believe he would have posted one had he hit those numbers.

It IS possible you were looking at the ground loss data for the start of the turn with the default filter setting of Since Last Turn rather than Soviet Air Phase.

I could be wrong, and if so I'd love to see a screenshot and know how this kind of damage was done.

This is an artifact left over from WITE1 and yes you can get those number of men lost from GA. Eventually, the loss rate outstrips the manufacture rate of all planes except for IL2's and can even outstrip that if the Germans set-up correctly their AS.

[RedJohn]

Merry Christmas.


We start with north, very little movement here - a couple of hexes taken.



Our defensive lines here are routed, expected but still hurts to see.



The REAL pain however comes in at Orel. Turn and turn again I remain flabbergasted by the speed of his advance, and turn and turn again I continue to pay for it.



In the south he drives hard eastwards. As mentioned in the last post, this surprised me as I'd have expected him to drive northwards instead for Kharkov and it's delicious railyard.



Meanwhile Crimea falls, sans kerch.




Ow.



Another day, another thousand planes lost. Such is life in the VVS under my command.



Our own air phase was remarkably clean however!



It's not much but it's honest work.


Tried hitting this 1=1 brigade, but unfortunately luck was not with me.


I take my quiet revenge by hitting his OTHER brigade and routing it.


We also hit a regiment here at Stalino, taking very disproportionate losses - but that's the Soviet life I guess.


I shift my units as such, lacking the movement to really put depth at Stalino. Hence why they took up river positions. A consequence of the Germans catching me off guard.


I also begin shifting some of the SW front northwards, continuing the reinforcement. A bit of a haphazard movement though.


We reinforce the river bank, and prepare for the coming onslaught. I leave the east open in case he decides to drive there for whatever reason.



I also pull back at Vyazma approach, establishing defensive lines behind the river and achieving a much better frontline. To reinforce the northern flank of Kalinin front, I also pull back from VL. I could've kept holding here - he wasn't pushing, but I didn't want to risk being encircled by mobile from the south-east. VL is nice to have but I judged I'd just throw away an army for no real reason if I continued to hold. You can see the mobile there staring threateningly at me.


OOB as of turn 8. Almost dipped below 3m undamaged men on map, a heartening sign.


Massive german truck losses this turn for logistics, also a great sign.


Supply indicators have been a great deal of distress for me. Jango assures me they're unreliable, but most turns I open and see green supply and despair.


Rough! At this point I stop paying attention to the fighter battles and just move on with my bombing.




VP wise, it's looking extremely good for the Germans. He only needs 149 to win, and he has 8 turns to achieve this.





I'm also in my "tilted by what's routed and what isn't" phase.

[tyronec]

A good enough turn for Axis, PG2 did enough damage to make it worthwhile taking a few hits during the Soviet turn.

The plan was always to go for Rostov rather than Kharvov. The advantage of Rostov is it opens up the possibility to wheel South if you can get across the Don before the bad weather arrives and get in some more turns of combat.
Am not sure if AGS would have the supplies (or strength) to go both ways, so to do both Rostov and Kharkov would likely need another rail line going:
Kiev - Kursk - Kharkov (this one would be really slow if you go through the marshes to Kiev, which is single track but cutting up from Fastov will trash the Rostov line.)
or
Minsk - Gomel - Kursk - Kharkov (could maybe get there around T15/16)

Don't know if players have done that in the past, managing rail late '41 is not something I have much experience of.

[RedJohn]

Turn 9!



Powerful hold up in the north. Our only hold, but still.



VL falls, but otherwise nothing happening here.



Thankfully no pockets here, but still a lot of damage being done to poor Central Front.



My lack of depth at Stalino pays dividends to my enemy. Ouch.







We held a couple times here at least. Rommel is unused to commanding on the Eastern Front after his African escapades, I suppose.


OOB as of turn 9.



Map men are unfortunately stagnating.



And our reinforcements aren't looking too hot for the next few turns. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaalllly feeling the closed TBs.



We continue our bombing of his panzers.






A small victory.



A bigger victory! And we beat off a reserve panzer.



Another small victory.









A very empty stretch of land.



Continue shifting forces, hopefully to hold onto Rostov - we abandon our men at Stalino.



Lotta good units to reinforce next turn. They can... hold rivers, I guess.



Pretty rough losses still.

[tyronec]

Not much happening with AGN and PG3 past Smolensk.

PG2 makes good progress around Orel, pushing up in the open terrain.

AGS just fail to assault Stalino, the plan was to push through the Soviet lines with heavy follow up attacks. Instead we have to pocket it.

[RedJohn]

Turn 10.



We open with an assault on the greatest city fort ever, Kerch. A resounding Soviet success, I guess the Germans expected a more modest defence.



Many, many damaged elements.



Up north down south, however, things are looking dicier. The gates of Rostov have been reached, and my defence is not set up.



A blissfully quiet turn at centre.



Not much happening here either, given my retreat. The Vyazma wall also stands strong.



Whatever river this is called has been breached, and the Germans dive a little deep. Poor terrain and the river stopped anything disastrous though.



Reasonable losses, quite happy.





Our air terror campaigns kick into overdrive from this turn onward. Expect thousands of german KIA every turn, pretty much all directed to his forward units at Orel/Tula.






Some modest counterattacks. By this point it's clear he's sent the majority of his mobile units elsewhere(at Vyazma), so I feel confident in being a little more aggressive there. Also hit a German ID up north.



The Kharkov gap still exists, but thankfully there are no German mobile elements threatening it.



Positions at the end of turn. Mostly just pulling back at centre, and readjusting defensive lines in the north and south.



My predictions for where the frontline will settle. By this point I've resigned myself to losing Tula, he's far too close and mud is too far away.




OOB and losses for my action phase. Overall, besides Rostov, things are looking good.

[tyronec]

AGC had advanced past their air cover and I wasn't able to get AS in place for the next few turns so they take a hammering from the VVS. That effectively kills off the offensive in the center.

A bad turn for AGS too, assaults on Kerch and Rostov both fail.

[M60A3TTS]

A bad turn for AGS too, assaults on Kerch and Rostov both fail.

Maybe it just wasn't mentioned, but was there any hasty attack, by say a Rumanian cavalry brigade, on Kerch prior to assaulting it in order to get a sense of the garrison size?

Any thoughts on trying to isolate the city through naval patrols?

[Zebtucker12]

A bad turn for AGS too, assaults on Kerch and Rostov both fail.

Maybe it just wasn't mentioned, but was there any hasty attack, by say a Rumanian cavalry brigade, on Kerch prior to assaulting it in order to get a sense of the garrison size?

Any thoughts on trying to isolate the city through naval patrols?

Pretty sure you cant isolate kerch with naval patrols.

[M60A3TTS]

A bad turn for AGS too, assaults on Kerch and Rostov both fail.

Maybe it just wasn't mentioned, but was there any hasty attack, by say a Rumanian cavalry brigade, on Kerch prior to assaulting it in order to get a sense of the garrison size?

Any thoughts on trying to isolate the city through naval patrols?

Pretty sure you cant isolate kerch with naval patrols.

I've never actually tried. Is it that the ferry crossing can't be interdicted by naval patrols?

[tyronec]

Maybe it just wasn't mentioned, but was there any hasty attack, by say a Rumanian cavalry brigade, on Kerch prior to assaulting it in order to get a sense of the garrison size?

I had not seen this stratagem before and so didn't have an appropriate unit in place test the garrison.

Any thoughts on trying to isolate the city through naval patrols?

I don't think the game engine interdicts ferry hexes.

[Jango32]

Kerch cannot be isolated by naval patrol. The only way you can isolate Kerch is by taking the Taman peninsula. When the city fort in Kerch is stacked and led by a good general (Soviet standards of good general) and loads of artillery SUs, it's more or less impossible to take Kerch as Axis.

[RedJohn]

Turn 11. We open with an assault on Rostov. It thankfully failed, but it was surprisingly close. Look at that German gun concentration!



Nothing happened between Rostov and Kursk, if I recall. So we zoom to Tula. The grind continues.



A strong hold at Vyazma - Lothar is humbled.




And in the north we're herded into a light pocket.



Overall not the worst turn, but it's not ideal to lose 100k.





Soviet STUKAs continue their raids.



It is not a good place to be, the VVS under my command. My poor pilots continue to be abused.



We throw back the panzers over the Don, albeit dealing very little in the way of casualties.







At Vyazma, the opportunity I've been waiting for has arrived. With his mobile tied up west of Vyazma, and at Tula, I launch operation deep dive. Soviet tanks under Vatutin swoop behind German forces, and subsequently hit them for routs. This frees up a cavalry to go for Bryansk. Probably my only actual really successful move this entire game.

We isolate an ID. I'd have herded it northwards, or more preferably routed it, but I didn't have the MP to do so. So we settle for trying to encircle it.



The predicted move to counterattack.






At Voronezh we try a similar operation, but this time I just send a very weak mech to try and cut rails. 3k men, but 35mp! Very nice.



In conjunction with operation deep dive, I try to put pressure on the German forces at Tula.



And in the north we free our pocketted units (well, they mostly just walked to freedom) and hit two german panzers in a very close battle.




And another glorious cavalry raid.



Positions in the south. We rotate Rostov's units where we can.



Empty.














Air losses for German turn, and losses during my phase. I *think* this excludes air bombing, so add another 5k Germans on top. And OOB.