Defending the Rodina - A Soviet WiTE2 AAR

[ncc1701e]

Thanks for the AAR. On average, how long to play a turn?

[loki100]

I could say it depends. ... [;)]

but that is not much use. I have a fair tolerance for detail and this stage of the game I am having to juggle wrecked VVS formations a lot. Low morale I can sort out on map, low experience (mainly due to a lack of trained pilots) need to go to the reserve.

I'd say 90-120 minutes, more on the turns when I rework my logistics system (say every 4 turns). The main real variable is how much the front has shifted shape, so these turns I spent ages counting and recounting MP and CV for SW Front and the related formations but to the south was fairly mechanistic, move to occupy what the AI had abandoned and the north is just a lot of staring at each other.

[ncc1701e]

Thanks [:)]

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just going back to the previous update - that pre-emptive retreat in front of Stalingrad is a big step forward for the AI I think? The WITE AI in particular has a habit of waiting for everything to go wrong before bolting the stable door and retreating. Is the Soviet AI in 41/42 similarly able to keep itself out of the worst trouble?

agree - overall the AI now is good. This game picked up a number of issues that were easy to miss in the AI-AI games (these are what we've mostly relied on for complete game balance information for obvious reasons) and have been sorted out now. But overall, my view was it played the big decisions pretty well, and it puts together reasonably effective operations (it attacks at spots not randomly along the front, it is more flank aware etc), its still not great at individual placement/use of terrain/HQ structures but all that is very hard in a game of this complexity and with what makes sense shifting across the game.

It also helps having 2 good mid/late war scenarios in Stalingrad-Berlin and Vistula-Berlin, that is useful to explore how it responds to that sort of situation

Have you yet ran into any catastrophic AI terrain selection failures?

I recall a phase in my Soviet WitE1 campaign vs the AI where in -42 the German panzers main offensives were concentrated mostly in the middle Pripyat swamps... that really finalized their loss, and no logistics or combat handicap could've saved the AI from that mistake.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just going back to the previous update - that pre-emptive retreat in front of Stalingrad is a big step forward for the AI I think? The WITE AI in particular has a habit of waiting for everything to go wrong before bolting the stable door and retreating. Is the Soviet AI in 41/42 similarly able to keep itself out of the worst trouble?

agree - overall the AI now is good. This game picked up a number of issues that were easy to miss in the AI-AI games (these are what we've mostly relied on for complete game balance information for obvious reasons) and have been sorted out now. But overall, my view was it played the big decisions pretty well, and it puts together reasonably effective operations (it attacks at spots not randomly along the front, it is more flank aware etc), its still not great at individual placement/use of terrain/HQ structures but all that is very hard in a game of this complexity and with what makes sense shifting across the game.

It also helps having 2 good mid/late war scenarios in Stalingrad-Berlin and Vistula-Berlin, that is useful to explore how it responds to that sort of situation

Have you yet ran into any catastrophic AI terrain selection failures?

I recall a phase in my Soviet WitE1 campaign vs the AI where in -42 the German panzers main offensives were concentrated mostly in the middle Pripyat swamps... that really finalized their loss, and no logistics or combat handicap could've saved the AI from that mistake.

No. its basically ok. The criticism is it doesn't really recognise why a particular hex is really important in the current configuration of the front line. So that is one reason to give it a hand up in terms of the morale setting.

For the summer of 1942 it picks either Moscow or the South - for VP reasons alone those are good choices. So you don't get the issue that happened in WiTE1 of a determined drive from the Volkhov to Cherepovets for eg.

In the course of this test I uncovered 3 instances where it wasn't using its forces where they were needed - all of which got resolved by addressing the underlying issues.

So accepting it is an AI, trying to cope with a complex game (both the rules and reading how the situation is changing) I think it'll give you a good experience. Beating the Soviet AI in 1941 is not easy (at least once you move to morale of 110+), even if you have a really good grasp of the logistics system

[DekeFentle]

We'll come back to discuss that 'W' next to the unit name in one of Red Lancer's post - its a really neat addition to the game

Did I miss the discussion?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: DekeFentle

We'll come back to discuss that 'W' next to the unit name in one of Red Lancer's post - its a really neat addition to the game

Did I miss the discussion?

still to come ... [;)]

[loki100]

13 March 1943

This update is based on the end of T90

Background

The start of 1943 saw the Soviet offensive stall apart from a small breakthrough by Central Front towards Kursk. However, by 17 January even this had been stopped as the Germans created a strong defensive line along the Donets.

By the end of January, the Soviets had reached Rostov and had completed the build up of Western and Bryansk Fronts. The offensive on this sector opened on 31 January with the goal of reaching Bryansk and Yelnya.



By 27 February, Western Front had made limited gains and was re-organising to renew the offensive while Bryansk Front was still caught up in fighting to reduce the German salient west of Orel. These battles were to stretch over the next 3 weeks badly delaying the Soviet advance.



T90

As maybe clear from that brief overview this has been a frustrating phase. SW Front is over-extended and I still have too much of its assault formations locked into the front line. My real hope on this sector is for Stalingrad Front to reach Stalino and shorten the front. That will allow me to use Voronezh Front to shorten the sector held by SW Front and renew that offensive.

In the image below, you can see part of the problem. Even remaining static, and with 100 CPP, my Tank Corps have MP in the mid-20s.



Which leaves this sector as my main hope. I am using the two Moscow MD to give command to the armies holding the flank (they can dig in over level 1 and that helps deter German attacks). Bryansk Front has finally reduced that salient and Western Front is fully rested. The small attacks to to the south of its salient are to give me ZoC free movement up to the front line.

It also has most of my artillery divisions.



Losses over that phase. Am over-running a few axis formations but nothing really significant – certainly not the equivalent of capturing 6 Army at Stalingrad.



Air losses remain one-sided. Most of my LB are off map (no point flying long distances in poor weather) but my fighters take heavy losses escorting the Sturmoviks into action. As before, there is no point worrying about this. You can't solve the gap in experience between the two sides (even careful use of the National Reserve only really brings Soviet pilots up to their notional NM value for experience) and while Soviet planes are improving they are still mostly out-classed.

But the reward for large scale GS makes taking these losses worth it.



OOB. My numbers are staying pretty much static though I have a lot in the reserve training up. I now have 4 Assault Fronts (you gain +1 each year) and they are basically grouped into pairs.

As mentioned, I am using the Moscow MD commands to control the secondary armies in the central sector. I lack the manpower/combat power to hold the flanks particularly well so the ability to generate better defensive positions is useful. As I gain more dominance – and less fear of counter-attacks – I'll bring these back into the Assault Fronts (as the CPP gain is very useful).

[Headshotkill]

So far the pre-emptive retreat from Stalingrad has to be the most advanced AI-behaviour yet witnessed in this AAR, what exactly triggered it?
Is it a timer, like at a certain turn if the Axis doesn't capture the city they automatically start retreating or does it actually analyse the soviet buildup and determine the risk?
Does it look further than that and also consider your breakout from Voronezh to Kharkov?
Is this behaviour also possible in other sectors like for example a historical Rhzev/Vyazma salient?

[loki100]

I think it has a few preset triggers where it is made aware of wider risks. One is around Stalingrad if it is exposed, another is for AGN if the Soviets push along the Dauga. This is part of how it plays the game, it recognises a situation (say with the Axis the chance to move into the Crimea) and then carries out the necessary moves. So it has a core set of criteria and a degree of situational awareness and specific options.

We have Operation Mars as one of the scenarios and that has been really good for seeing how the AI handles that type of situation - which is tricky enough for human axis players to judge in the wider Stalingrad-Berlin campaign.

In general, you will get more small pockets vs the AI than in HtH but equally it is much more aware of the threat of operational encirclement. It also mostly makes good choices about attacking in to release units as opposed to writing them off given the wider strategic position on a given sector.

You can see something of that in the second map image, where it attacked to push me back from the base of its salient (the hex where it has 23-93)

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Air losses remain one-sided. Most of my LB are off map (no point flying long distances in poor weather) but my fighters take heavy losses escorting the Sturmoviks into action. As before, there is no point worrying about this. You can't solve the gap in experience between the two sides (even careful use of the National Reserve only really brings Soviet pilots up to their notional NM value for experience) and while Soviet planes are improving they are still mostly out-classed.

But the reward for large scale GS makes taking these losses worth it.

How do you know what the reward is? Do combat reports tell you how well your air power is doing without having to step through each unit shooting at each other? I don't want to have to plow through combat resolutions one step at a time to figure out what is going on.

[keitherson]

This is part of how it plays the game, it recognises a situation (say with the Axis the chance to move into the Crimea) and then carries out the necessary moves. So it has a core set of criteria and a degree of situational awareness and specific options.

Seems like the AI is a massive improvement this time around. I recall my last game against the AI in WITE, playing as Soviets I had Budapest and Konigsberg by November 1942. Hopefully that is no more.

Couple of questions:

1. I notice the AP costs for most formations are far lower that WITE. Does this mean the soviets receive less "empty" formations as automatic reinforcements? I found it uncommon to need to purchase more rifle brigades and divisions in WITE, has this changed?

2. Can tank brigades still build up into tank corps? rifle brigades into divisions?

3. Can you deactivate an assault front to make room to activate a different front?

(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

ORIGINAL: loki100

Air losses remain one-sided. Most of my LB are off map (no point flying long distances in poor weather) but my fighters take heavy losses escorting the Sturmoviks into action. As before, there is no point worrying about this. You can't solve the gap in experience between the two sides (even careful use of the National Reserve only really brings Soviet pilots up to their notional NM value for experience) and while Soviet planes are improving they are still mostly out-classed.

But the reward for large scale GS makes taking these losses worth it.

How do you know what the reward is? Do combat reports tell you how well your air power is doing without having to step through each unit shooting at each other? I don't want to have to plow through combat resolutions one step at a time to figure out what is going on.

Simply look at a combat report and as in WiTW it will tell you how many elements were disrupted/damaged or destroyed by air power. The main summary tells you this and you can dig in if you want to. The key is the sequence of play. GS missions are executed, then long range artillery, then the closer range stuff. So if an element is disrupted by air power it takes no part in the rest of the battle, so in a way an infantry squad disrupted by GS is of more use than one disrupted by infantry (as it never ever fires in the battle).

ORIGINAL: keitherson

This is part of how it plays the game, it recognises a situation (say with the Axis the chance to move into the Crimea) and then carries out the necessary moves. So it has a core set of criteria and a degree of situational awareness and specific options.

Seems like the AI is a massive improvement this time around. I recall my last game against the AI in WITE, playing as Soviets I had Budapest and Konigsberg by November 1942. Hopefully that is no more.

Couple of questions:

1. I notice the AP costs for most formations are far lower that WITE. Does this mean the soviets receive less "empty" formations as automatic reinforcements? I found it uncommon to need to purchase more rifle brigades and divisions in WITE, has this changed?

2. Can tank brigades still build up into tank corps? rifle brigades into divisions?

3. Can you deactivate an assault front to make room to activate a different front?

(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

1 - By mid-42 AP are not much of a currency for either side. Its a constraint in 1941 as you are shifting commanders, building depots etc but given that HQ re-allocation is free there is less call on them once it settles down. The Soviets get a mix of the returning destroyed divisions (pretty much as in WiTE1), empty shells you can build up, leave for later or just disband, and the stuff you order.

Your build strategy is driven by shortages. As I've mentioned in the AAR (I think), the Soviets have an enduring lack of heavy artillery up to early 1944, so no point creating all those heavy artillery SUs. So I build every mortar formation I can and anything that relies on 76mm guns and try to keep my small stock of heavy production for the artillery divisions and on map TOEs.

Rifle Brigades I personally think are more useful in WiTE2 as they are Multi-Role Units (MRU), As in WiTW that means they can be on map or off map attached to HQs or directly to combat units. They are also useful as emergency replacements, just merge one into a battered division or corps if you are in a supply-poor map sector. At this stage, almost all my Rifle Corps have 3 Rifle Brigades, so in a stack that is the equivalent of 13.5 divisions - a lot of combat power. As we move into 1943 I start swapping these out for specialist assault engineers (these are rare), SUs based around the SU-122/SU-152 and then then IS-2s so that I have some Corps optimised for breakthrough operations. But the bulk still use Rifle Brigades as their attachment of choice.

Now some of that is my interpretation of what works, but I'm not seeing any of the other testers offering a radically different framing of the options.

2 - Yes, you need a mot brigade + 2 tank brigades. If 2/3 are Gds then the corps forms as Gds. The brigades need to be either in the National Reserve or directly attached to Stavka, the Corps then appears in the National Reserve to complete fitting out. If you lack one (or more) of the build blocks, you can produce the Corps in any case, but it appears with very low experience levels and will need a fair while to train up.

edit - yes 2 rifle brigades to create a division, much as in WiTE2. But as above, I find I do much less of this in WiTE2 than 1 simply as the brigades have a value in their own right. In WiTE1 I used to regard them as divisions in waiting and to hold rear area fortification lines to stop them decaying.

A good eg of this is the shock armies that appear in WiTE1 stuffed (as historically) with rifle brigades and pretty much a waste of the command bonuses as a result. Stuffing a Shock Army in WITE2 with rifle brigades is a sensible choice, esp up to mid/late 1943.

3 - Yes, you can swap around as you want. If I suddenly decided that I really wanted to hammer AGN, I could swap my Assault Fronts to that sector.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: keitherson
(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

Loki, do you happen to know if there will be any more beta testing rounds? I noticed Joel mentioned it couple of weeks ago, but no news after that. I know I have my hands itching to wrestle this monster as soon as possible, just like Keith

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: keitherson
(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

Loki, do you happen to know if there will be any more beta testing rounds? I noticed Joel mentioned it couple of weeks ago, but no news after that. I know I have my hands itching to wrestle this monster as soon as possible, just like Keith

Only what I've read. Technically the game has just entered beta (ie all the systems and constraints coded), Joel has mentioned a few times bringing in a last group to help test balance and just generate play data so that some of the criteria can be refined.

So quite what that means in terms of when or numbers I'm not sure. At one stage, you had to have WiTW to enter (as the early game builds were a variant on that code) but that was dropped a while back and most of the last set of testers came from the WiTE1 community (& it was interesting and informative to see how the process of adaption, especially in terms of then reworking the game documentation), so my guess would be that the next batch will be taken from those with experience of WiTE1 - but that is a guess.

[loki100]

22 May 1943

This update is based on the end of T100

Background

On 14 March, the long prepared blow by Western Front fell on AGC, while Bryansk Front re-organised for its linked offensive towards Bryansk [1].



By 21 March, the balance shifted with Western Front re-organising and Bryansk Front driving deep into the German front lines. Allied to a renewed attack by Central Front, this reached the outskirts of Kursk and threatened a major encirclement.



By early April, Kursk had been liberated as the Germans fell back rapidly [2]



5 April saw a localised German offensive that stalled the Soviet gains as Central and Bryansk Fronts swapped their sectors [3]. More importantly the heavy rains that lasted till 15 May stopped any significant moves by either side as the Soviets built up for their planned summer offensives [4].

T100

So a good time to review the whole front, options and talk about Victory Points again. I've added the VP cities to the map displays as that helps with the discussion.

This has sector been a stalemate for the last year and is not going to change soon. All my VP targets here are scheduled for 1944 and I am still struggling with the local supply net. The nearest to mobility is a single cavalry corps as a reserve for NW Front.

But we can talk about Finland. That part of the war is abstracted, the Axis have a 'Finland' theatre, I have a 'Northern' Theatre. If we both over-commit, then the VP and time gains more or less cancel out, if one side over-commits (and I have) then hopefully over time they gain a steady advantage. Finland can exit the war when I control the area bounded by the Luga and Narva but to push it out I also need excess forces in my Northern Theatre. There are then a series of events that reflect the historical Soviet offensive into Karelia, the brief stablisation of the front and then the armistice discussions.

At that stage I get the Helsinki VP and the Arctic war becomes my Northern Front against the axis forces in Norway. I get a lot of scripted returns from the Northern Front (but can't reclaim my voluntary reinforcements as I am not playing with the extended Theatre control option).



So before moving on, here's the VP chart. I gained the 'initiative' in late February, so need to hit +616 by the end of 1944 or I lose – realistically the sudden death targets are out of reach.

Now the careful readers will remember I was cursing in 1941 as I lost a number of VP cities early, thus giving the AI the +6 bonus. This is now the consequence to those early retreats, in effect that chart dictates the phasing of my strategy. Stalino will fall early (its now pretty much the front line) but I have 15 turns to take Smolensk (the +6 only happens if I take it 3 turns early) and 18 or so turns to reach the Dnepr bend (Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye) and not much more for Kiev.

Which is why I had Bryansk Front swapping places (and some formations) with Central Front as I need the mobility in the Ukraine not heading towards the swamps of Bielorussia.

For VP reasons alone, the focus for the summer of 1943 has to be the Ukraine. But first I need Smolensk.



So lets start there. As before I am using the two Moscow MD to give command to the supporting formations. Central Front has limited command capacity (its not an assault formation), for Western Front they have the advantage I can weaken my front line while I build up.

Western Front is now clear of the poor terrain and well placed advance to Yelnya and Smolensk itself. Central Front is outside Bryansk and can then advance towards the Dnepr.



This shows the northern Ukraine. My basic goal is for the Bryansk Front to attack towards the Desna and then swing SW towards Kiev. SW Front to attack westwards and clear the northern bank of the Dnepr.

Ideally it will also dislodge the Axis from the Dnepr bend.



Voronezh Front has been trying to secure a bridgehead over the Donets but keeps on being driven back. Stalingrad Front is the main assault formation here but is reliant on Cavalry Corps for its mobility.

As mentioned above, Stalino will fall fairly soon, my basic idea is that the Germans will have to retreat to the Dnepr less due to direct pressure and more due to the offensives in the northern Ukraine.

The south has a huge prize – Rumania - but realistically we are talking about 1944 not 1943 for that gain.



And a quick view on the Crimea. Trying to force the Kerch Straights is a real challenge and in VP terms Sevastopol is a 1944 target (but no harm to taking it earlier). But have set up a naval invasion to help things along – those of you used to WiTW will recognise the process and its much the same in WiTE2. I'll use this if I see an opportunity – perhaps connected with the advance towards the Dnepr bend.



But the entire UI for airborne and air supply operations has been reworked. Not sure I'll ever bother to actually carry out that mission but as in WiTW, its a good idea to keep on setting and resetting these – you never know when it make make a real difference.

Also as part of the rework, the whole process of ordering air supply is so much easier now.



OOB. Depressing bit is the number of German tanks and a 2-1 advantage in the air does not give me regular air superiority. But I am going to be very reliant on GS missions so its a simple case of accepting the losses till the LW is pulled west by Allied bombing campaigns.

To reflect all the moves above, I have around 14,500 tanks/afvs and almost 8,000 are in the Ukraine and 4,200 split between Western and Central Fronts. On the other hand, of my 120,000 guns, almost 40,000 are in Kalinin, Western or Central Fronts (and that includes most of my heavier guns).

Mobility will get me Kiev, artillery (and Sturmoviks) will get me Smolensk and Minsk.


edit - I'd forgotten I'd swapped Assault Fronts from Stalingrad to Central Front. Basically Stalingrad Front can grind its way forward as it can but its operational tempo will be set by events in the northern Ukraine.

On the subject of the OOB, that is my artillery stock. 65,000 of my guns are mortars or 76mm artillery and I have around 10,000 guns of 122mm or heavier.



Losses over the last 10 turns reflects the relative lack of sustained action. The Germans in particular are seeing a lot of previously wounded men coming back.



They also gain from a short term post-Stalingrad boost to their manpower recruitment.



[1] The deployment is linked to the rules for CPP gain. The basic rule is a unit gains 1 CPP for every 24 unused SMP (so at best 200/24 – 8 per turn).

If it is both unadjacent to the enemy and in a friendly held hex (at the start of the turn) this is tripled (so at best 600/24 – 25). Being linked to an assault front reduces the divisor to 12, so the gains are up to 16 and 50 respectively.

In effect, 2 turns of sat still where Bryansk Front is in that image = 100 CPP.

Almost all units by default get 200 SMP (strategic movement points) per turn so this is not altered by the usual MP calculation rules.

[2] Another neat move by the AI, I was imagining a massive pocket, all I got was a couple of regiments.

[3] I am still stalled in the south and want the armour of Bryansk Front to co-operate with SW Front in the Ukraine come the summer. Central Front is infantry heavy and that suits my expectations for any gains towards Smolensk and in the poor terrain of Bielorussia.

[4] This was by far the worst spring weather of the game … . No point extending my supply lines as I am still nursing my truck stocks, I'll have enough problems once the summer offensives commence (I hope).

[MarechalJoffre]

Thanks for the AAR, much appreciated.

Can't say I am too excited for the port over of the unnecessarily complicated air warfare system of WitW to the Eastern Front though.

Say what you want, that was completely undecipherable for me after tackling with it for 20 or so hours.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: MarechalJoffre

Thanks for the AAR, much appreciated.

Can't say I am too excited for the port over of the unnecessarily complicated air warfare system of WitW to the Eastern Front though.

Say what you want, that was completely undecipherable for me after tackling with it for 20 or so hours.

You can just use AI Air assist, it does reasonable job. In PBEM you might want to delve into air war bit more...but can actually have both sides to use Air Assist to avoid bother about 90%. Might still want to build some extra airfields and things like that.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: MarechalJoffre
Can't say I am too excited for the port over of the unnecessarily complicated air warfare system of WitW to the Eastern Front though.
Say what you want, that was completely undecipherable for me after tackling with it for 20 or so hours.

Players like you are exactly who we built the new AOG and Automated Air Assist system for. Take heart, it's MUCH easier to handle than anything that was in WITW.

Regards,

- Erik

[Pocman]

Hello Developers
will the German Language be supported?