Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

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Beethoven1
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Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

Turn 1 air phase. This part can be shown without a delay. The rest of the AAR will have somewhat more of a delay though (TBD).

I have a total of 160 air directives, ALL of which are targeting only a single hex. This is the maximum possible air directives you can have.

Airbase bombing directive targets:

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And these are recon targets. Basically every hex that is the slightest bit potentially problematic for attacks gets some recon. Supposedly this helps slightly with ground combat, so maybe it will mean an extra shatter or 2 and avoiding a combat delay in some hex where that actually matters, and most importantly hopefully helps mean Rovno pocket will go without a hitch.

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I got off to a good start. Hopefully we can maintain this 310 to 1 loss ratio for the entire war. :lol:

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It's all downhill from here........

In total, I ran 6843 sorties.


These were the ground losses:

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And the air losses (air phase only, no land yet):

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Some of my best pilots are Romanians, apparently:

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35 planes destroyed by Mr. O. Birladenanu. A true Romanian national hero, he will be given the highest honors and sent off to sell war bonds.

Hopefully that is enough kills also to increase his 53 skill rating a bit.

Particular plane types lost for both of us:

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I got some nice recon values on various key hexes. 99 or 100 on all of these in particular. We know the exact locations of every single individual Soviet soldier in each of these hexes down to the nearest square meter:

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Although for some reason Tarnopol is a bit lower (only 38), maybe because it is a city (?)

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The recon values are lower in other hexes though (I did more minimal recon in those).

So if it is true that recon value makes a difference in ground combat, hopefully this will ensure that everything goes off without a hitch. Or if not, I lost 7 recon planes. Whoopdy-do.


There are probably not many VVS planes left, but if there are a few, it seems that our fighters still have plenty of air miles left to deal with them. Only 8% used for example:

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We also ran naval patrol here:

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tm1
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by tm1 »

Beethoven1 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 12:54 am

35 planes destroyed by Mr. O. Birladenanu. A true Romanian national hero, he will be given the highest honors and sent off to sell war bonds.


If this Romanian ace was a German pilot he would have to be close to securing a Knights Cross for the kills ( they are confirmed Kills right ? :mrgreen: ) of course Germany did hand out medals to there Allies during the course of the war.

On another note I have to admire all players who will spend the time doing the Air War manually, when your playing against the AI as I do its easier to let your AI handle it, Good luck to both in the game.
Last edited by tm1 on Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

tm1 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:18 amIf this Romanian ace was a German he would have to be close to securing a Knights Cross for the kills ( they are confirmed Kills right ? :mrgreen: ) of course Germany did hand out medals to the Allies during the course of the war.

On another note I have to admire all players who will spend the time doing the Air War manually, when your playing against the AI as I do its easier to let your AI handle it, Good luck to both in the game.
This is one of those cases where I think we can overlook the fact that Birladenanu is Romanian and give him a Knight's Cross anyway. All in the spirit of being good allies. :P
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

A Beethoven AAR. If the game goes over the distance, the finished AAR will probably rival the bible in the amount of text! Looking forward to it and will follow!
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by tm1 »

Beethoven1 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:03 pm
tm1 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:18 amIf this Romanian ace was a German he would have to be close to securing a Knights Cross for the kills ( they are confirmed Kills right ? :mrgreen: ) of course Germany did hand out medals to the Allies during the course of the war.

On another note I have to admire all players who will spend the time doing the Air War manually, when your playing against the AI as I do its easier to let your AI handle it, Good luck to both in the game.
This is one of those cases where I think we can overlook the fact that Birladenanu is Romanian and give him a Knight's Cross anyway. All in the spirit of being good allies. :P
A Noble gesture, to further the subject myself and I believe the rest of the community will be very keen to hear of the great exploits from " The New Hero Of The Balkans " so if you would be so kind as to keep us up to date with the Heroic and Daring Deeds of this Romanian Air Ace as the campaign progresses in your future posts we would be all grateful :D
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

tm1 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:52 pmA Noble gesture, to further the subject myself and I believe the rest of the community will be very keen to hear of the great exploits from " The New Hero Of The Balkans " so if you would be so kind as to keep us up to date with the Heroic and Daring Deeds of this Romanian Air Ace as the campaign progresses in your future posts we would be all grateful :D
WELL... What I probably WAS going to do was send all Romanian bombers to the Soviet garrison theater box, because they can provide some theater box value. The problem with that is that it deletes the pilots and turns them into just an average representative skill number! Is that what sending him off to sell war bonds means? hmmm.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by tyronec »

What patch was this started on, any of the mods being used and are you playing to any house rules ?
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

tyronec wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:13 am What patch was this started on, any of the mods being used and are you playing to any house rules ?
It is unmodded, 1941 GC, No Early End, theater boxes open, server game.

We are NOT using any of the custom morale changes or the lower retreat losses option for this game (despite me being an advocate of those options) because I want to play at least 1 proper fully vanilla Axis game or 2, to get the "true Axis experience." After that I will be better able to evaluate if what I think about game balance and various things is correct or not. While I am experienced, my experience is all with either Soviets or with mid-late war Axis (other than 1 team game as Axis OKH leader), so there are other players with more 1941/42 Axis experience than I, who are probably better situated to evaluate certain things than I am.

We are playing starting with the .03.09 patch.

Apparently in that patch there are some changes to the starting Soviet air setup (the are assigned to ground support I think), so it is possible that could be partly why my air phase was as good as it was. I was not aware of the changes when I did my air phase, but it probably did not hurt. However, the ability to destroy a lot of planes on turn 1 is nothing new. K62 got 7k in his AAR from his game against Vet, and I vaguely recall some AARs from a year or 2 ago prior to the interception changes where people were getting up to 5-6k or so.

I think K62 and other players did things like change the loudouts of planes. I did not do that at all, with the one exception of giving fighters bombs so that they could bomb the closer up airbases (so that bombers with longer range could have air miles to bomb the further away ones). So if you go to the extent of micromanaging the bomber loudouts and things like that another player could probably do better than my 5.5k toll.

Also my air losses were relatively low (certainly compared to the default air directives), but they are still a lot higher than what various other players (HLYA for example) have gotten. Probably that is mostly because of my large number of deep bombing raids, but it is also probably also due to various settings and tweaks for the plane loudouts, bases, AOGs, and air doctrine etc to which I am oblivious and pretty much ignored.



House rules - we have not actually discussed in detail yet, so I should send a PM to Bobo, but we will have at least obvious things like no temporary motorization and no paradrops and I think generally we both will probably want to avoid things that seem obviously broken.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

There is some discussion relevant to this AAR in this tech support thread (optional additional reading for anyone interested) https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=401132
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

Here is a little preview of more or less what I will be trying to achieve in the land phase of turn 1. Our plan is to destroy the entire Red Army within the first week. We won't bother to pack winter clothing. As far as we are concerned, we have already destroyed the entire VVS in the air phase, and there will be no more Soviet planes to worry about for the rest of the war.

My turn 1 advances very far and tries to either attack, isolate, or ZOC lock basically every Soviet unit that is possible to get. BUT I try to do so in as safe and reliable a way as possible, so that I am not too dependent on RNG. I am also trying to have a margin of safety in case something goes wrong. For a lot of attacks (in particular key ones), I go out of my way to attack with more force than might be strictly necessary. This should - hopefully result in something close to this:

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All the pockets have been verified to be either unbreakable or certainly at the very least very nearly unbreakable. We will see if I can in fact actually do it without messing something up. There will be some minor differences in certain places due to some rivers that were changed (at least 2 of them).

It is possible to advance a few hexes further to wards Vitebsk and/or a few hexes further beyond Proskurov, but it is NOT (I think) possible to do those things while ALSO having the north advance be as strong as it is and while also having the Rovno (and Kovel) pockets and while also having a center advance as strong as it is (which is not at all bad, despite being a few hexes short of the closest possible to Vitebsk). With this opening, there should be significant instant pressure to be felt on all parts of the front in the opening Soviet turns.

However, especially because we are playing with Open TBs which can allow Soviets to bring some units to the map more quickly, and also because I think Bobo knows what he's doing, Soviets should probably be in a position to stabilize the situation in at least most parts of the map by around turn 5 or 6 or so. And that's fine.

But I don't intend to make it too easy for him. At least not until I realize that I forgot to pack my winter coat.




I HAVE already made at least one minor mistake in the land phase. I accidentally attacked one NKVD border guard in the south near Lvov with 1 of the wrong divisions. This is also an example of how I go out of my way to try to avoid anything that could go wrong. I attack it with 2 divisions, but frankly probably at least 90-95% of the time I could attack it with only 1 division (or maybe even less) and be totally fine. I would surely still win, but might get a combat delay. If I did get a combat delay, it would not matter much - just prevent 1 mountaineer from going one extra hex that is nice but not essential to go.

HOWEVER, one of the 2 divisions I clicked on for the attack was the WRONG one! Not the 71st Infantry division!!! I still attacked with 2 divisions. But one of them was WRONG. Not according to the plan! But that is not really a problem, the plan is designed to try to allow for these deviations as much as possible.



Also, before I forget:

1) Thanks to Zovs, stamb, and Imperator Augustus in particular for helping me to figure out the turn 1 air phase. K62's AAR was also helpful, although I did not discuss it directly with K62.

2) For the land phase of Axis turn 1, thanks especially to HLYA for making his excellent turn 1 guide. The opening I do will be a bit different from what HLYA does in his guide, but a lot of the core (infantry moves mostly) are partly built off of what HLYA does in his guide. There are a things I do differently in various places (especially to try to minimize the chance of anything that could go wrong in various ways), but I never would have gotten to this point without HLYA and I would probably still be a Soviet-only player. DekeFentle's turn 1 North and Center guide in the War Room is also excellent, although he posted it after I had basically finished ironing out my Axis turn 1. But there are some things there which DekeFentle does which I like a lot which I might try to incorporate in the future.

3) Thanks to a lot of other people for various general advice and other things I have learned from forum posts, AARs, and discord discussion etc.

4) Thanks of course to the devs for making WITE2 a great game.

I will maybe at some point in the future post some sort of turn 1 guide in the War Room also, but not before I am sure it is as reliable as I think it is. This game will partly be a test of that.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

Let's start in the south.

Screenshots are tricky here due to that GUI bug where it is not showing the battle icons after a battle is done, so I don't have a battle screenshot here and in some other cases. To get a screenshot, I have to (usually) take it in the MIDDLE of the battle, and for that reason I slowed down the battles. But I don't have a screenshot for everything I might want.

Anyway, this is not the first area I did:

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I started out in the same way as HLYA's guide with infantry moves near Lvov, although with a few things a bit different with more margin of safety than in HLYA's guide.

BUT this red ex I circled near Kovel is important. It has a NKVD border guard. If you do not shift that NKVD border guard somewhere else, then various Panzer Group 2 units that will be heading south have to spend an extra MP. So we get this out of the way (routed towards what will hopefully become the Rovno pocket). You CAN also save an additional 1 or 2 MP on a few units by blowing away this entire front line area (like HLYA does in his guide). However, I should not need those extra MP with my plan. Although if I did need an extra MP or two in certain places, one of the things I could adjust later is to blow away these other units as well, at the cost of some of them perhaps getting away.



Down towards the south, after doing these infantry moves (similar to HLYA's guide up to here), we find ourselves here:

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I think most people attack the cav division on the 1=1 HQ first, but the plan calls for attacking this mech division PRIOR to attacking the cav. That cav can give a lot of people trouble, but it is virtually inconceivable that it could ever give the plan trouble (although the downside of that is that the mech can give some trouble instead, but I think the mech is more easily manageable).

Anyway, so I attack the mech with 3 divisions (with SUs). I also use bombers. This is all part of attacking with more force than might be strictly necessary for at least the key battles, to keep things on track. The cost of it is I will lose a very small number of bombers that I won't particularly have any use for until 1942 regardless. But it is another thing that helps make things a lot less chancey.

The mech will generally retreat either south-east, or east. You prefer it to retreat south-east, but my plan assumes the worst case scenarios for this sort of thing. In this case, it retreated east.

You can also see that the Lvov AT brigade retreated right 1 hex. HLYA tries to herd it into the pocket to the north, but I don't want to use a mobile unit on that (partly because it usually/often seems to rout rather than retreat anyway, and partly because I want to attack Lvov with a full division to be safe, which does increase rout chances also).

So I follow up attack the AT brigade to get it out of the way. I could probably have attacked with only 1 regiment and been fine particularly since it already lost a battle and it is just an AT brigade, but why take chances? I even used bombers on the poor AT brigade, just to make 110% sure rather than merely 100% sure that there is no combat delay:

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Next I moved Grossdeutschland to the hex where the mech was, and then I follow up attacked (also with a SU and bombers, of course, to help make sure of things). Unfortunately I did not get a screenshot of the battle, but the mech retreated northeast:

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There was also no combat delay. A combat delay would have been fine. The plan assumes a combat delay. We also got lucky that the mech retreated this way rather than east again. But if it retreated east, that would also have been according to plan and would not be a problem.

The fact that it retreated north-east is nice, though, because it means we should be able to subsequently herd the mech into the Rovno pocket, rather than it maybe ending up getting away.

Next I slide in a Panzer regiment south-east of the mech (visible in the next screenshot). This gives me ZOC on the hex east of the cav, which will prevent the cav from being naughty and retreating there.

With ZOC established, next the same 3 divisions that attacked the cav attack the mech:

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All we need here is not to get a combat delay. We easily avoid that, with 99:1 odds. With 3 divisions, SUs, and bombers, you should be able to reliably avoid delay even if the cav randomly spawns with super high morale. And because we have ZOC to the east of the cav, it has to retreat (or rout) to the north-east, exactly where we want it.

In this case, I presume the cav must have randomly spawned as being pretty weak, so going to these lengths was probably totally unnecessary. The cav routed SO hard that it somehow routed ALL the way up here (the furthest I have ever seen it rout):

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Notice also that while I had previously moved that 6=16 cav up, I had NOT yet moved it up next to that rout point. So it was there to catch the cav when it went flying northwards such a long way.

Next I moved another regiment southeast of the mech here:

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This displaced the AT brigade from Lvov and it happened to displace northwards (which is fairly lucky).

But the point of moving the regiment up was to give me ZOC on Zolochev. That way when I subsequently attack the mech, I can be sure it won't retreat to Zolochev, but instead should have to go northeast.

The other nice thing about the mech having retreated where it did is it allows me to hit it with an infantry division one last time, rather than having to waste mobile unit MPs.

HOWEVER, when I actually attacked, there was a SURPRISE:

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The mech actually routed northeast, but hen redirected back along he double rail. This is very unusual. Normally it would just go north-east along that other double rail. But it is not really a problem, other than possibly meaning the mech might have a small chance to subsequently get away.

The other thing to notice is in this attack with the infantry division, I only BARELY exceeded the 10:1 odds needed to avoid a combat delay. If I had gotten a combat delay, that would no have been a problem, because I did not get a delay on the hex where Grossdeutschland did the 2nd attack on the mech. BUT if I had gotten a delay on both hexes, that would have been a major problem. So in the future, if Grossdeutschland does get a delay and the mech winds up in that hex, it is probably a good idea to hit it with a mobile unit in addition to that infantry.

Next I advanced forward, and for some reason the mech now displaced northwards again. Lucky.

It was a very strange mech. Routing northeast, but ending east, and finally displacing north again. Probably it was just trying to make the AAR interesting.

Next I moved up the Panzer regiment to give ZOC on the yellow hexes. Note the Panzer regiment would have had MP to move there EVEN IF it had to go through a combat delay:

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With the ZOC, the tank should retreat or rout north-east as well when it gets hit. Unless its commander is even crazier than that mech division commander, I suppose.

Air losses so far:

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With the ground phase, we are getting up close to 6k in total, despite there having been no Soviet planes in the last few attacks. A battle or 2 ago, I noticed that and turned off my fighters, so my bombers are now flying unescorted. I will turn hem back on when later when I get closer to any other Soviet fighter bases.

The tank behaved more reasonably than the mech, and retreated 1 hex northeast, like a good little tank:

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Next I moved up Das Reich next to Tarnopol, and also moved 2 motorized regiments to provide ZOC on the hexes east and southwest of Tarnopol. This will "encourage" it to retreat (or rout) south-east. And on the off chance it retreats one hex, then we can give it a follow-up shove with a Das Reich regiment to get it further out of the way.

The plan calls for Das Reich to attack with 3 SUs. We also attack with Das Reich in particular rather than some weaker division (some other versions of Rovno pocket use different units).

However, I looked and saw how pitifully weak the Tarnopol rifle division was on that previous screenshot. Only 3 CV? That is amongst the weakest I have seen in Rovno. So, while I still did use bombers, I decided to only use 2 SUs rather than 3.

So confident was I that the attack would not only easily win but also avoid a combat delay that I left off that last SU.

BIG MISTAKE:

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1) von Vietinghoff missed his leader roll and dropped from 199 to only 147 final CV.
2) The Soviet infantry division was not just 3 CV but actually 7.8 CV, more than double the estimate.
3) In addition, despite it being a horrible Soviet leader, there were randomly 2 Soviet artillery SUs deployed.

As a result, the final CV odds were slightly less than 10 to 1, and there is a combat delay.

Let this be a lesson to you - never deviate from the plan. If a Soviet unit looks weak, it is probably strong and you have bad intel. Trust the plan.

HOWEVER, this is not actually a problem. The plan assumes that there will be a combat delay on Tarnopol. There usually is a delay, in my pretty limited experience. If there is NOT a combat delay, then that's just gravy. So we do not count on it.

With that, pretty much all the attacks that are somewhat questionable on the south-side of Rovno. We did not have the best possible RNG luck, but also not the worst. The plan handled it without really breaking a sweat.

The only somewhat questionable attack we need to do on the south-side of Rovno is that hex 3 north-east of Tarnopol. That is an attack against a rifle division, but it is on clear terrain with no fort. The only problem could be if we hit it with underwhelming force and attacked only with a single regiment or 2. But there is no reason to use underwhelming force. Better safe than sorry and not to rely on RNG too much. In the worst case, maybe there is a small chance it will rout too far out of the Rovno pocket if we hit it a bit too hard. That has not happened in my tries, but could be possible.

But better to avoid the chance of it maybe messing up the Rovno pocket as much as we can.



I probably won't post too many more uncensored map screenshots, at least of relevant parts, until at least Bobo receives (and subsequently finishes) Soviet turn 1, on the off chance that it would give away unit positions too much and allow for some of the pockets to be broken. The parts that I have shown here so far won't really do anything to help Bobo.

I am pretty sure they can't be broken though, unless something happens that is unaccounted for by the plan, like a 50 MP Soviet cav division. But surely that could never happen. And God help us if it ever did - can you imagine the chaos that could be wrought by a 50 MP Soviet cav division? Let's just say, it would not be good for the plan.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

The following 2 screenshots are NOT from the current game with Bobo, they are from single player test games.

The purpose of posting them is to try to illustrate how robust the plan is. The plan goes out of its way to try to assume Murphy's law. If something can go wrong, it will, and the plan tries to be prepared.

Here is one test case:

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The mech repeatedly retreated here and had to be attacked 5 separate times (although I could have herded it like I did in this game with Bobo in the previous post). This is one case I tried previously and learned from (so I did it better in this real game). If I really had to, I could actually have follow up attacked the mech another time, and I think actually even another time after that, without having a problem.


Here is another one:

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The mech retreated due east 3 times, each due east, meaning it had to be hit head on repeatedly, without the possibility of herding it (and also that one last infantry division could not help).

Again, I think we could have hit it at least another time or 2, if we had to. But after that, we would have started having issues.



These are both pretty close to worst-case scenarios. Usually it should be considerably easier than either of these.

The plan comes prepared. At least insofar as possible. Which is to a large extent.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

Axis Turn 1 (land)

Bobo sent back Soviet turn 1, so here are some screenshots of Axis turn 1. Overall, things went as the plan foretold, with just a few very minor deviations due to RNG. But these were all variations that the plan is designed to deal with.

HOWEVER, it appears that discord screenshots no longer work as they used to, and it seems that this messed up some of my screenshots in the first post about the air phase somehow. It also seems to have messed up other AARs where people posted screenshots from discord (for example here - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4&start=60).

So that means in order to post screenshots I have to use the forum attachments tool, which is a lot more of a pain to use than simple copy/paste discord screenshots. As a result, I will probably unfortunately have fewer screenshots (and perhaps less discussion) in this forum AAR than I was originally intending. I'll make an effort here for turn 1 to provide more screenshots, but probably less subsequently.

Also, there is an arbitrary limit of 10 mb attachments per post on the forum, so I will unfortunately have to arbitrarily split things into multiple posts.



Anyway, here we go for Axis turn 1.
1.png
1.png (1.93 MiB) Viewed 1405 times
You can see I have some air superiority set up over the area between Riga and Ventspils (this is the absolute maximum of how far north an air superiority mission can go on turn 1 AFAIK). I was expecting Bobo might do naval patrol on either Ventspils or Riga, or try to bomb the Riga port or something, so my fighters came prepared (albeit only 1 Stab with 3 planes which I rebased to Memel at start of the turn, but better than nothing).

If the game allowed, of course I would have set up air superiority missions from Riga and Liepaja airbases to more fully cover the larger area, but unfortunately you can only set up air superiority at start of the turn, from airbases you already control. And there is only so much range after rebasing to Memel, even with the extra fuel tanks (starting the turn a bit further south). I also moved about 70 fighters each into BOTH Riga airbase, and fully resupplied both of those airbases (100% ammo, fuel, etc).

The Hungarian air command is also running naval patrol. Yes, the Hungarians. But it is all actually German planes. Just have to set it up using the Hungarians because of the arbitrary limit of 32 air directives per air HQ.

In the north, I advanced very far (I am pretty sure it is literally the maximum amount possible) towards Pskov. I have a Panzer division (which also has done no attacks, so it has comparatively high CPP and fuel etc) only 8 hexes away from Pskov already, so it should be a challenge for Bobo to set up a defense on Soviet turn 1 in the north. In addition, I routed one of Lelyushenko's tanks near Idritsa in the far north-eastern corner (and also displaced Lelyushenko's HQ, though RNG smiled upon Bobo and Lelyushenko was not assassinated). And I also attacked both of the 2 infantry divisions which start near Gulbene (1 of them shattered as you can see below):
shatter.png
shatter.png (1.18 MiB) Viewed 1405 times
The AT brigade in Jelgava also routed into a pocket (which was not an accident, but exactly what is supposed to happen). For most turn 1's that AT brigade will rout to safety in the north, where it can live to fight another day.

In addition, when I attacked Riga, the NKVD motorized retreated southwest rather than routing away (usually result is the scouted which turns into a rout and it usually but not always routs north). This did mean that I had to regiment Totenkopf in order to hold the NKVD motorized in place, and as a result I could not advance a few extra hexes north of Riga, but I am happy to pocket and eliminate the valuable motorized division.

As a result, there were 0 extra units that routed to the north, other than those that are impossible to rout or retreat into pockets. The only 5 routed units visible in the screenshot are the 3 airborne brigades, Lelyushenko's tank, and the one of the 2 Gulbene infantry divisions that routed rather than shattered.

Normally many or all of these units do not get hit at all, so Bobo should already be down a few units to work with in the north from what Soviets normally have in a typical game.


In this north-center, bit, things also went according to the plan. I think I improved (slightly) my turn 1 in this area because I did things a bit differently to rout more units into the Bialystok pocket rather than into a pocket north of Kaunas/Vilnius (as in HLYA's guide). This means there will be fewer units to clear away for my units heading north (where speed of advance is more important), and also that Bobo will have fewer units that can damage my wonderful Baltic rail hexes. This change to my turn 1 was partly influenced by DekeFentle's guide, although I didn't do it in exactly the same way. I also tried to regiment fewer divisions than I did previously when I was doing things more similarly to HLYA's guide.

You can also see that where possible, I let forts be rather than attacking them, in order to get the extra couple hundred of men per fort to surrender. There are also a couple of units that I did not attack at all. This will end up slightly increasing the surrenders, but will slow a few units down (mostly security divisions etc). But not every single unit needs to sprint as fast as possible to the front, and by having a few units that dawdle in the rear clearing pockets, there should be slightly less burden on my logistics for the other units.

In particular, you can see that there are several tank and mech divisions which I did NOT attack even though they all or mostly could have been easily routed into smaller pockets. The reason for that is they all start with about 1000 trucks or so each, so by not routing them on turn 1 and leaving them alone until I surrender them on turn 2, I should end up capturing a decent number of extra trucks which will help me later. It is definitely worth having a few infantry regiments advance a handful less hexes or so than they otherwise could.

In particular, north of Vilnius there is one tank division by itself. It is ZOC-locked by my infantry divisions. I could have covered its north-eastern corner more tightly with a motorized regiment, but I preferred to have it advance further north. The ZOC-locked tank can normally only move a single hex anyway (rarely it can run away 2 hexes or so if it gets lucky Movement Points RNG, which is not a problem and doesn't threaten my double rail line).
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

And here is the center-south:
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The plan pockets Kovel using only the German full cavalry division. It's not necessary to use a mobile division on that, so I can have extra mobile units do other things. One of those other things is to ZOC-lock one of the infantry divisions in the swamp and rout the other one (unfortunately there are 1-2 too few MP for it to be possible to isolate or ZOC-lock the other one). Although these are both only relatively low TOE infantry divisions, I think it is worth making the extra effort to get them because of the random southwestern front morale bonus. Sometimes those units can have 60 or more morale, which can make them extremely valuable for the Soviet player later in the game. So I think it is good to doom one of them and rout another while you can do so easily on turn 1. And it's not like there is really anything more I could do in the center with an extra division. I am already pocketing, routing, or ZOC-locking essentially every possible unit there anyway.

However, the way I do this is a bit riskier than it used to be. Because of the map change where they added an extra river, the German mobile units have 1 or 2 fewer MP. This means that the German infantry division near Sarny that I attack can only be attacked with 1 regiment rather than 2. So if you get unlucky, that infantry division might retreat or something rather than rout. It's a real tragedy, that map change. And in addition, the map change means that all the German infantry division can't advance as far towards Minsk on turn 1, which probably will make turn 2 pocket clearing more annoying.

One Soviet infantry division (with about 10k men) east of Minsk is ZOC locked. I could attack it, but I think ZOC-locking is preferable, because it can be somewhat risky if you only attack with a single regiment, and you won't necessarily inflict 100% losses even if you rout it with a full division. Whereas by ZOC-locking it, I can easily re-pocket it (or even just re-ZOC-lock it) and then subsequently surrender it with infantry (also saving a small bit of CPP on my mobile units). Another Soviet infantry division that starts just south-east of Minsk (100th rifle division) was herded into the Bialystok pocket. And all of the 3 airborne brigades were attacked (2 routed, one of them shattered). Plus for good measure, I also attacked the NKVD border guard in the swamps near Luminets that usually/often is ignored.

While I did not advance literally the maximum possible distance towards Vitebsk, I only advanced a few hexes short of that (the Panzer division that can go furthest to Vitebsk is IMO better sent to the north, where it can go far towards Pskov instead).

I also went out of my way to avoid displacing the Western Front HQ in Baranovichi. It has about 40k men worth of support units in it, so by keeping it in the pocket I can get some extra surrenders (at the cost of making the pocket more annoying to clear next turn and the possibility that I might have to use a small number of motorized regiments on pocket clearing).
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

Also apparently north-center screenshot didn't upload correctly 2 posts earlier
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

In the south, as I described partly previously, I did Rovno pocket. The way I have Rovno pocket set up I am pretty sure is impossible to break without Soviets winning a battle against a unit which holds the pocket, and it should be impossible to win a battle (other than against the motorized regiments on the southern flank, which are not actually holding the pocket), because Soviets just do not have the right units with the right MPs to do so, regardless of RNG. Any units that the Soviets try to use on counterattacks from outside the pocket should also be basically doomed the next turn.

IMO at least, the only real play for Soviets against this is to just run away to the maximum possible extent. Anything else is just suiciding units with no real benefit to show for it.
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I had to do it slightly differently from how I previously did it on the old patch, due to not having RFSS. Overall I think the way I have it is a good way to do it. One interesting thing to note is that on my southern flank, everything is a motorized (not panzer) regiment. So if Bobo counterattacks with some of the quite beefy Soviet tank divisions in the area, I won't lose AFVs there.

I put 2 regiments (1 each) on the 2 hexes south of Rovno, which prevents use of the rail to evacuate some units south of Lvov. I could have put 2 on one hex instead of 1 on each hex because it m. I also don't really mind if Bobo attacks (and even beats) both of the 2 regiments, because in order to do so successfully he would have to basically sacrifice as many units as the ones that typically can escape. Even with the rail blocked, normally a lot of the Soviet units can escape if the Soviet player knows how to do it.

I could have advanced a bit further and attacked some of the forts beyond Proskurov, but I preferred to ZOC-lock the Soviet tank division near Proskurov. That tank division normally only has about 6 MP anyway, and normally starts off unready, so it is doomed by the ZOC lock (whereas if you attack it it often routs with low losses). This also secures my flank a bit more from infiltration (if you leave a gap without ZOC, some high MP Soviet units can infiltrate in around Proskurov and be annoying the next turn). I was pretty much expecting Bobo to just evacuate everything he could, so I was not expecting much additional ability to pocket more units next turn if I advanced 2-3 hexes further into the forts.

Also, notice I had air superiority set up to protect the Romanian division which blocks the other rail in the south (if the Soviets have any bombers left to bomb with, anyway, after these air losses).

I had ground support on during the Soviet turn. Ideally I would have wanted to have it only for a mobile corps or 2 which could potentially be counterattacked from outside of tthe pocket, but due to only having 32 air directive slots (and not really thinking about it before), I had it for all of AGS. So unfortunately if Bobo attacks from inside the pocket, I will lose some planes there.

Overall, Axis losses were 287k:
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The overall air losses were only barely over 6k despite being 5.5k in the air phase. So basically, there were very few planes left in the ground phase available to fly (and be shot down by my fighters) that were not destroyed in air phase.
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Obviously that is very good/high overall. But it it is nevertheless substantially worse than K62's 7000+ plane haul (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p5113657). K62 also killed 2751 pilots, whereas I only got 1538 Soviet pilots. So as a result, Bobo will have all those pilots to (eventually) refit into better planes, when they will come back with a vengeance and smite me.

If I could wave a magic wand, I would probably prefer to have destroyed 1000 more pilots like K62 even if it meant destroying 1000 fewer planes. But I'll take it anyway. :lol:


And here are the ground phase air losses. You can see they were quite low... not many Soviet planes left after the air phase other than some of the Long Range Air Command and Leningrad front ones.
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I actually took a decent number of losses in the ground phase because I used bombers on a large number of attacks. In my opinion, there is not much reason not to (at this stage), because Axis does not have any difficulty getting freight to the areas where the bombers are on turn 1 in Poland. I hoped that by using them I would maybe get an extra shatter or 2 etc. Plus, by using them on turn 1, you can make doubly sure not to get some crazy failed attack or something like that.

The plan's motto is "better safe than sorry."
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

Here are a few battle screenshots of some interesting battles (generally showing how I arranged things to get units to rout where I wanted them to go - something which is not so easy in subsequent turns, but which can be done pretty reliably on turn 1).

Here is the Jelgava AT brigade:
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It routed into the pocket because I left the rail from Siauliai towards Daugavpils not cut, while I meanwhile cut the other rails and/or blocked other nearby rout points with units. It likes to rout towards connected rails, and that was the rail that was closest that was still connected to the rail system.
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Meanwhile, here the 50th rifle division routed south (and ultimately went into the Bialystok pocket after I re-displaced it), because I cut tthe rail to the north. It also helped that I blocked the Lepel rout point with a unit prior to attacking, and I attacked from the north, "hitting it" towards the south.
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However, this is not 100% foolproof and occasionally a unit will rout the wrong way. In this case, usually the 55th would rout west into the Bialystok pocket, because the rail from there to Minsk (and outwards towards Gomel) was still connected, and because I was blocking the other nearby rout points (insofar as possible), and because I hit it from the north-east.

Nevertheless, the 55th rifle division took nearly 100% losses from the rout, so the losses are almost as good as if I pocketed it. Although this way Bobo will have that counter in subsequent turns. Although, possibly, that isn't even necessarily bad for me, because it means maybe subsequently I can attack it and inflict more losses after it is reinforced. Or maybe it will be bad, because it will slow me down. Who knows - not me. We'll have to see the fate of the fightin' 55th.

I think the main reason it routed the wrong way was that I hit it a bit too hard, so it routed "further" than it should. If it had higher morale or if I had not used air support or a support unit attached, it perhaps would have ended up in the pocket. But overall, I prefer attacking with more force even if it on occasion results in something like this.

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In the south, here was the attack on the 19th tank division. I hit it with a good amount of force (3 regiments with SUs, including a flammpanzer), again to be "better safe than sorry." Similarly, I am ok attacking with Panzers rather than motorized here, even though it means I lose a few AFVs, because the higher CV makes it more of a sure thing. Usually it will rout when you hit it with that much, but sometimes it will retreat as it did here. Because it retreated substantially to the north, when I follow up attacked it, it routed slightly out of the pocket. So this was one of the other very few units that ended up routing to a less than perfect place.
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

And here was the follow-up on the 19th:
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Again, I attacked with a bit more force than might have been needed (2 regiments, perhaps I could have used one, but I didn't want to risk a 2nd retreat to who-knows-where which could possibly interfere somehow with the pocket). Possibly partly as a result, it routed slightly further to the east. Nevertheless, despite being considerably to he north and me hitting it from the southwest, it was actually routing down along the double rail line, probably because I had previously cut the rail to the north.

Also, here was the attack on the NKVD finishing the north bit of the Rovno pocket:
nkvdsouth.png
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There is no way to herd this into the pocket. So anyway, this NKVD and that one tank division are I think the only units in the area that managed to avoid getting sucked into the Rovno pocket, leaving the Soviets with very few extra units to work with.

Subsequently this NKVD was displaced on to the same hex with the tank that I ZOC locked a few hexes north-east or Proskurov.


The only other attack I can think of where a unit routed to the wrong place (out of a pocket) was when I attacked the NKVD that is a few hexes northwest of Minsk. The plan called for me to hasty attack it, but I deliberate attacked it (trying for a shatter). If I did a hasty, it probably would have routed into the Bialystok pocket, but at least partly because I hit it too hard it routed over towards Gomel. So that was perhaps a minor unforced error. But I wanted to make sure I had enough rout points left for other units to be able to fit where I wanted them to go.


But other than these pretty small things, the plan worked basically perfectly. I think this opening puts a lot of pressure on the Soviets - right from the very start - in all 3 of the North, Center, and South. It also should ensure that I capture a relatively high number of trucks on turn 2, so that I can push aggressively and also have a few extra captured trucks to support it.

If I were playing Soviets, I think I would have a tough time figuring out how to defend against it in the next few immediate turns. As a result, hopefully it puts me in a good position and will hopefully provide a bit of a challenge for the Soviets, so that it takes me a few more turns before I collapse under the weight of the Guards Rifle Corps that sooner or later will be pounding the Wehrmacht. :lol:
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Re: Beethoven (Axis) vs Bobo (Soviets), 1941 GC

Post by Beethoven1 »

We have a bug report - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9#p5153149

There is a significant apparent problem with the RADs. Hopefully it can be figured out what is going on here. If not, I am not sure how to proceed, because if randomly I am going to have 6 RADs not repair in future turns, that completely messes up my rail repair.

If it were just 1 rad or so (which I understand can happen on occasion and has been declared WAD), it wouldn't be ideal and I could deal with that. But if an outright majority of them don't work, then that is pretty game ruining.

Anyway, until it can be looked at I can't go forward with the game, and can't save or end the turn, because if I do it may overwrite the previous saves on the server and make it impossible to fix, if it is a fixable bug or something. I am already starting to regret agreeing to play server rather than PBEM, because it can make these sorts of issues a lot harder to fix, and they often seem to happen.
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