Advanced Mission Planner (AMP)

[Cik]

if it includes waypoint-specific actions for the mission planning i think it'll work. that means something like:

push
split
switch EMCON state
go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
change altitude/airspeed
fly angle-off to target(s)
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
BOL (decoys)
BOL (attack specific coordinate)

the TOT/WTOT function and the ahead-of-time steerpointing and the per-steerpoint actions are the biggest priorities for me i think.


keep in mind emsoy i don't think there is any real reason that the AMP should replace totally what the game already has. even if it were implemented tomorrow i wouldn't feel the need to use it for every single mission. relatively often the "fly straight line to target, drop, RTB" is good enough.

that isn't to say that the AMP wouldn't be revolutionary of course, just saying that you don't have to nuke what you've got and start from square one.

[BDukes]

The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.

YES!

Very nice, this is exactly what an Advanced Mission Planner should do.

However it should probably be noted that setting up all the waypoints, timings, EMCON, etc, would require a bit of work for the player

If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?

Ok. Sounds cool but a little hesitant when you say its a lot of work. Do you have picture?

[DrRansom]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

1. Yes, that sounds reasonable.

2. Good point, will add to my list. This would be similar to the datablock info on units, yes?

3. How about you set the ToT, and all the other times are calculated automatically, including take-off? And if you need push points with hold times, just enter the desired hold time for the waypoint, and the take-off time is adjusted accordingly?

1. Yeah, I always envisioned the strike package as allowing for multiple land strikes within it, then coordinating those strikes. For the developer's sanity, there is a good argument for a limit, e.g. all strikes must target units within X miles of a common center.

2. Yes, exactly.

3. Perfect, couldn't ask for anything better on this point, really.

[tango4]

ORIGINAL: emsoy


If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?

Absolutely awesome !

Charles

[ComDev]

ORIGINAL: Cik

if it includes waypoint-specific actions for the mission planning i think it'll work. that means something like:

push
split
switch EMCON state
go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
change altitude/airspeed
fly angle-off to target(s)
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
BOL (decoys)
BOL (attack specific coordinate)

the TOT/WTOT function and the ahead-of-time steerpointing and the per-steerpoint actions are the biggest priorities for me i think.

Thanks again for everyone's input. This is great [8D]

Cik, Im a bit curious what you envision each of the items in the above list to be like in terms of functionality in-game.

To be honest I do not think detailed weapon allocation, cruise missile flightplans, decoys, or lat/lon targets (coordinates) will be included in v1.0. Its simply too much work that could add a year or more to the development schedule. Sorry!

ORIGINAL: Cik

keep in mind emsoy i don't think there is any real reason that the AMP should replace totally what the game already has. even if it were implemented tomorrow i wouldn't feel the need to use it for every single mission. relatively often the "fly straight line to target, drop, RTB" is good enough.

that isn't to say that the AMP wouldn't be revolutionary of course, just saying that you don't have to nuke what you've got and start from square one.

Yeah the AMP will build on top of whats already there. The first version of the flightplan generator was created for v1.07 and has been systematically improved since. It works really well and is used for all AI-generated flightplans, and has support for off-angle attacks and navigation around No-Nav Zones.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3653

The flightplan generator has even been using different types of waypoints for several years, and you can already set speed/altitude, EMCON, doctrine etc for them after the aircraft have taken off. Because of this, the AMP would probably even be backwards compatible with older scenarios and strike flightplans.

[Cik]

push
loiter at specific area until package arrives- once package arrives depart as a group towards next steerpoint


split
diverge from package and return to base and/or hit a tanker and/or move to next push point to meet next package

switch EMCON state
self explanatory

go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
should be settable for package, escorts only, strikers only, specific groups etc.


attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
attack while moving from steer to steer, in a specific area, against specific targets with specific weapons ideally etc


change altitude/airspeed




fly angle-off to target(s)
to allow flying notches or beams or for use of specific ISR sensors like SLAR(s) or ELINT sensors.


jettison weapons/fuel tanks
would be real nice to have when planning strikes where agility will be good to have :^)

BOL (decoys)
would be great so you don't have to micro MALD/ITALD


BOL (attack specific coordinate)
would be nice for attacking known positions, carpeting areas with cluster munitions, or for use with ARM weapons for SAM suppression.

[VFA41_Lion]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

ORIGINAL: Cik

if it includes waypoint-specific actions for the mission planning i think it'll work. that means something like:

push
split
switch EMCON state
go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
change altitude/airspeed
fly angle-off to target(s)
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
BOL (decoys)
BOL (attack specific coordinate)

the TOT/WTOT function and the ahead-of-time steerpointing and the per-steerpoint actions are the biggest priorities for me i think.

Thanks again for everyone's input. This is great [8D]

Cik, Im a bit curious what you envision each of the items in the above list to be like in terms of functionality in-game.

To be honest I do not think detailed weapon allocation, cruise missile flightplans, decoys, or lat/lon targets (coordinates) will be included in v1.0. Its simply too much work that could add a year or more to the development schedule. Sorry!

ORIGINAL: Cik

keep in mind emsoy i don't think there is any real reason that the AMP should replace totally what the game already has. even if it were implemented tomorrow i wouldn't feel the need to use it for every single mission. relatively often the "fly straight line to target, drop, RTB" is good enough.

that isn't to say that the AMP wouldn't be revolutionary of course, just saying that you don't have to nuke what you've got and start from square one.

Yeah the AMP will build on top of whats already there. The first version of the flightplan generator was created for v1.07 and has been systematically improved since. It works really well and is used for all AI-generated flightplans, and has support for off-angle attacks and navigation around No-Nav Zones.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3653

The flightplan generator has even been using different types of waypoints for several years, and you can already set speed/altitude, EMCON, doctrine etc for them after the aircraft have taken off. Because of this, the AMP would probably even be backwards compatible with older scenarios and strike flightplans.

IMO individual pilot actions shouldnt really be a concern - command is a strategic level sim, rather than a study flight sim of a single aircraft

[Cik]

i don't understand your opinion because 90% of the game is individual pilot actions. this isn't really an operational game (though it can approach it i guess) you command planes, not squadrons. ships, not fleets.

it's like saying to me "why bother modeling altitude/heading etc, this isn't a single-plane sim"

it's pretty important to be able to tell your airplanes to do things that airplanes do when they are engaged in combat in a game about airplane combat (among other things)

[VFA41_Lion]

It's about micromanagement. This is entirely an operational game - I can order entire squadrons to bomb certain areas, tell a whole carrier strike group where to sail and who to bomb, tell another surface action group where to go, who to shoot, what not to shoot at, transport passengers and cargo, fire nukes, deploy EMPs in the upper atmosphere - I'm legitimately confused why you think this is a game solely about airplane combat.

Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats. Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls. Saying 90% of the game is individual pilot actions is a little much.

[Raptorx7_slith]

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion

It's about micromanagement. This is entirely an operational game - I can order entire squadrons to bomb certain areas, tell a whole carrier strike group where to sail and who to bomb, tell another surface action group where to go, who to shoot, what not to shoot at, transport passengers and cargo, fire nukes, deploy EMPs in the upper atmosphere - I'm legitimately confused why you think this is a game solely about airplane combat.

Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats. Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls. Saying 90% of the game is individual pilot actions is a little much.

Chaff/flare for fighters going defensive has always been automatic. The "chaff" option you are talking about is for laying chaff curtains from bombers in the early 60's/70's.

[Cik]

what i mean is, it's not an abstract game. i don't tell my carrier group to collide with another carrier group and then a die is rolled with some modifiers to determine the result.

having a mission planner that allows me to plan missions - that is to tell individual planes what to do when approaching / departing steerpoints is a relatively important function of mission planning.

i don't know if you can call it a mission planner if you can't plot steerpoints and steerpoint related actions. because that's essentially what planning a mission is. am i wrong?

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats.

I'm afraid you may be mistaken.

You can, in fact, take full control of an aircraft by setting appropriate doctrine values (especially "automatic evasion"). Chaff and flares are deployed automatically at the appropriate time, because this is not a push-button flight-sim.

Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls.

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.

[butch4343]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Okay how about this...

In order to be releasable within a reasonable time frame, Advanced Mission Planner (aka AMP) v1.0 could include:

Editable flightplans: pre-take-off route planning (move, insert, delete waypoints), waypoint speed/altitude, waypoint doctrine and refueling settings
Configurable Time-On-Target (ToT) or Time-On-Station
Strike packages


The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.



So it would basically give you this:

Will that work for everyone?

Thanks

Emsoy,


This looks fantastic in terms of additional features for the advanced strike planner, could I ask as a scenario designer, that this be used with the scenario editior?

For me the strike planner is about creating a scenario where I can have my flight of Fencers/ Eagles/ Badgers Ect, fly a profile of my choosing, Ie to waypoint 1 fly at 25000ft at cruise, Waypoint 2 drop to 250 feet at afterburner.

If you give me that, it means I can choose very specific profiles, because with the best will in the world you guys cant create profiles (Hi-Lo-Hi, Lo-Lo-Lo) for every eventuality.

Its important for scenario designers to manually set strike mission parameters for the AI to execute.

Yours Respectfully

Butch

[VFA41_Lion]

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats.

I'm afraid you may be mistaken.

You can, in fact, take full control of an aircraft by setting appropriate doctrine values (especially "automatic evasion"). Chaff and flares are deployed automatically at the appropriate time, because this is not a push-button flight-sim.

Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls.

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.

I know its incredibly complex down under the hood (i've seen some screenshots from emsoy on his database works which probably doesnt come close to scratching the surface). I was just trying to make a point that Command is not a 'mostly' airplane combat game.

[BDukes]

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats.

I'm afraid you may be mistaken.

You can, in fact, take full control of an aircraft by setting appropriate doctrine values (especially "automatic evasion"). Chaff and flares are deployed automatically at the appropriate time, because this is not a push-button flight-sim.

Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls.

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.

Mr. Dimitris

If its true we can do all of this already in the game. Why do we need the advanced planner? Very confusing signals coming from all of you. Your posts have a lot of "we're doing this but it's hard" or "may be difficult to use or will require many hours to learn how to use". Do you understand a reader's perspective when they see this coming from the developer?

I'm worried this is going to be another screen full of buttons and learning a very complex interface for not much gain. I support you guys but this seems almost like somebody's pet project that ran away. You have a few flight sim nerds on board but not sure they know much about how games appeal to normal people. I know I can choose not to buy it but I would really like to.

I hope you understand. Please do not be angry. Thank you!

[BDukes]

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.

Haha. Bet you lots of old pooners who have questions about Commands source would like to see this as well.Silly. Hope you're butt isn't clenched like a mouth full of sour candy.

Anyways why don't you open up the openable parts? You can keep the super secret stuff locked. Seems like there are lots of devs on this fori with lots of insane ideas. You could also see after their huff and puff who can really walk their talk. Likewise they can see your talent as well so when you yell they know why.

THank You!

[Rory Noonan]

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Blah blah blah blah

This is why we can't have nice things.

[BDukes]

ORIGINAL: apache85

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Blah blah blah blah

This is why we can't have nice things.

Why did you change my quote to that. That’s very unprofessional. Do you know how to disagree without contempt ?

I think the next thing I won’t have is your DLC. Is that funny?

[Rory Noonan]

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Haha. Bet you lots of old pooners who have questions about Commands source would like to see this as well.Silly. Hope you're butt isn't clenched like a mouth full of sour candy.

THank You!

This is why we can't have nice things.

Better?

[BDukes]

ORIGINAL: apache85

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Haha. Bet you lots of old pooners who have questions about Commands source would like to see this as well.Silly. Hope you're butt isn't clenched like a mouth full of sour candy.

THank You!

This is why we can't have nice things.

Better?

No you need to add all of what I wrote. Not doing so frames it to what you’d like it to say.

Can you please stop? I’m one more post from ask matrix to ask you to stop harassing customers. You’ve already lost my business and if it continues they will lose it too.