I've noticed that very few modern ESM systems in the game seem to have geolocation capabilities, i.e. the ability to quickly determine an approximate range to an emitter. There seems to be an approximate range provided in the contact message, I still get a long, thin, bearing-only area of uncertainty when an ESM contact is shown on the map. In real life, don't most ESM systems on such platforms as the EA-18G, F-22 and P-8, as well as legacy systems on specialized electronic aircraft like the EA-6B and Rivet Joint, have geolocation capabilities?
Gregg
ESM Systems and Geolocation
Moderator: MOD_Command
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
For most of us who were/are not involved in the EA-18G, F-22 and P-8 programs, it would be extremely difficult to learn about their capabilities. Even someone with such access would never tell you details as electronic warfare is considered "a secret". So it's anyone guess what these platforms can or cannot do. However, from a traditional EW point of view, what these systems do roughly is:
1) Determine the signature of the emitting radar and compare it with a database (or catalog) of known sensors, so it can try to ID the aircraft/vessel/sam/etc. that uses such equipment (might be a search radar, a navigation or weather radar, a fire control radar, etc.).
2) Depending on the ESM system doing the detection/classification of the signals, you may either find an array of very sensitive antennae installed in different configurations. In shipborne ESM you may find these antennae on a mast or placed in different sides of a ship superstructure. Airborne ESM antennae can be installed in the wings (port & starboard), in the fuselage (above & below) and in the vertical stabilizer (tail fin). Ground based EW equipment can range from very complex (depending on the country) or very basic. Most of the times it's just a plain old Direction Finder (DF). In the case of the airborne and shipborne systems, you will find software doing complex math for signal processing and for locating as accurately as possible the source of the signal. Kalman Filter, Fourier transforms, differential calculus and a bunch of other methods are used.
3) Based on the strength of the signal, and with the help of other nearby SIGINT equipment (friendly, of course
), you may attempt to trace the emitter to a geographical (lat/lon) point. However, I've never seen a system operating standalone that, based on signal strength and bearing, can "automagically" tell you the exact latitude/longitude of an emitter. Even for law enforcement agencies with close cooperation from a service provider, tracking a cell phone isn't error free. And that's using dozens of geo-referenced antennae at their disposal for triangulation of a target!
Anyway, there's probably a fair amount of more knowledgeable folks in this forum with access to information of modern developments/capabilities in this field, but I just wanted to share with you a "rough" approach on how these systems work.
Cheers
-E
1) Determine the signature of the emitting radar and compare it with a database (or catalog) of known sensors, so it can try to ID the aircraft/vessel/sam/etc. that uses such equipment (might be a search radar, a navigation or weather radar, a fire control radar, etc.).
2) Depending on the ESM system doing the detection/classification of the signals, you may either find an array of very sensitive antennae installed in different configurations. In shipborne ESM you may find these antennae on a mast or placed in different sides of a ship superstructure. Airborne ESM antennae can be installed in the wings (port & starboard), in the fuselage (above & below) and in the vertical stabilizer (tail fin). Ground based EW equipment can range from very complex (depending on the country) or very basic. Most of the times it's just a plain old Direction Finder (DF). In the case of the airborne and shipborne systems, you will find software doing complex math for signal processing and for locating as accurately as possible the source of the signal. Kalman Filter, Fourier transforms, differential calculus and a bunch of other methods are used.
3) Based on the strength of the signal, and with the help of other nearby SIGINT equipment (friendly, of course
), you may attempt to trace the emitter to a geographical (lat/lon) point. However, I've never seen a system operating standalone that, based on signal strength and bearing, can "automagically" tell you the exact latitude/longitude of an emitter. Even for law enforcement agencies with close cooperation from a service provider, tracking a cell phone isn't error free. And that's using dozens of geo-referenced antennae at their disposal for triangulation of a target!Anyway, there's probably a fair amount of more knowledgeable folks in this forum with access to information of modern developments/capabilities in this field, but I just wanted to share with you a "rough" approach on how these systems work.
Cheers
-E
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
The issue that I've had the most issues with is automatic synthesis of emitter location, as well as location persistence. It would be nice if the game would, for radar systems that can't move, use subsequent bearing information to triangulate the target more accurately.
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
I haven't played CMANO for a long time as I've been buried in work, but AFAIK the enemy fixed ground stations are plotted in the map even before you start the scenario, which would be realistic considering you are likely to have "intelligence" on your enemy. I will check it out this evening, because I could be wrong.
Cheers
-E
Cheers
-E
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
Could this be a scenario design issue. I don't remember, but can you set a unit up to always visible. So if its a fixed station, you know its there.
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
It sounds like you're asking about an airborne version of Target Motion Analysis (TMA), such as a sub might use, to solve for range and bearing for a relatively slow moving or stationary passive contact.
I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't be possible, and, thinking about it, I'd be surprised if it isn't done. I've just never heard that it is.
JD
I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't be possible, and, thinking about it, I'd be surprised if it isn't done. I've just never heard that it is.
JD
JD
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
ORIGINAL: ckfinite
The issue that I've had the most issues with is automatic synthesis of emitter location, as well as location persistence. It would be nice if the game would, for radar systems that can't move, use subsequent bearing information to triangulate the target more accurately.
You're assuming it doesn't?
Put up a pair of RC-135s on widely spaced azimuths from a suspected emitter and check.
Mobiles too.
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
ORIGINAL: evaamo2
I haven't played CMANO for a long time as I've been buried in work, but AFAIK the enemy fixed ground stations are plotted in the map even before you start the scenario, which would be realistic considering you are likely to have "intelligence" on your enemy. I will check it out this evening, because I could be wrong.
Cheers
-E
By default, fixed facilities are auto-detected as you say. It is possible, however, for the scen author to override this and make any fixed facility subject to the same detection constraints as everything else (and thus undetected by default).
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
ORIGINAL: Sunburn
You're assuming it doesn't?
Put up a pair of RC-135s on widely spaced azimuths from a suspected emitter and check.
Mobiles too.
Regarding the real world: I'm sure the drug cartels and the Colombian ELN and FARC guerilla groups can attest to the effectiveness of the analysis software on-board the EP-3 and P-3 AEW&C aircraft that the DEA/HS operate here in Panama. [:D]
cheers
-E
-
NakedWeasel
- Posts: 500
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
When The Activity is listening in on your convo, there's a good chance you're going to get a visit from The Unit. And that's a visit that most would not want... Pablo, Bin Laden, et al, can attest. They don't give up, and they don't miss.
Though surrounded by a great number of enemies
View them as a single foe
And so fight on!
View them as a single foe
And so fight on!
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
True, but if you have connections to The Authority they can bail you out of tough spots. And then you can put to good use the abilities of the Trilateral Commission and the Matarese Circle. (To say nothing of the Star Chamber)
-
NakedWeasel
- Posts: 500
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
[:D] I'd buy that for a dollar!
Though surrounded by a great number of enemies
View them as a single foe
And so fight on!
View them as a single foe
And so fight on!
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
OK, OK, I’m feverishly trying to get this thread back on task!
When it comes to precision geolocation, there is nothing particularly sensitive about the capability. Remember, it has been available in the American arsenal as the ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System pod on the F-16 for nearly two decades now. The capability has simply been improved and migrated into aircraft developed since then, or in the case of specialized electronics aircraft such as Rivet Joint or EA-6B, added during upgrades. In a nutshell, all you need are multiple high-precision receiving antennas, and enough computer power to crunch the numbers using differential frequency-of-arrival or time-of-arrival algorithms. Examples:
Rivet Joint: http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Di ... joint.aspx - “The Rivet Joint's modifications are primarily related to its on-board sensor suite, which allows the mission crew to detect, identify and geolocate signals throughout the electromagnetic spectrum.”
EA-6B (ICAP III, ALQ-218 system): http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2 ... stems.html - “The new ALQ-218 receiver is the heart of the ICAP III Prowler, as are the sophisticated algorithms that allow selective-reactive jamming and precision threat geolocation capabilities.”
EA-18G (which also carries the ALQ-218): http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... e-jet.html - “The Growler will also feature the Super Hornet’s new APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which enables simultaneous tracking and targeting of multiple air and ground targets. Combined with the ICAP III AN/ALQ-218 EW Receiver Suite, which provides precision passive radar threat detection, identification, precision geolocation and jammer control, the Growler will have unprecedented situational awareness.”
F-22A (Software Increment 3.1 fielded in 2012): http://www.defensenews.com/article/2011 ... ction-Line - "This increment is designed to defeat air or surface threats in any threat environment; operational test and evaluation is nearly complete," Knuteson wrote. "So far, precision geolocation accuracy exceeds the requirement by 15%, synthetic aperture radar (SAR) map accuracy exceeds specifications by 55%...”
P-8A: http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2 ... ature.html - The AN/ALQ-240(V)1 electronic support measures system will provide a significant increase in capability for operations in the complex maritime battlespace. The adaptive tuning, precise direction finding and geolocation capabilities of the ALQ-240(V)1 will allow P-8A aircrews to detect and identify radar and other electronic threats to the aircraft and Navy vessels.”
Gregg
When it comes to precision geolocation, there is nothing particularly sensitive about the capability. Remember, it has been available in the American arsenal as the ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System pod on the F-16 for nearly two decades now. The capability has simply been improved and migrated into aircraft developed since then, or in the case of specialized electronics aircraft such as Rivet Joint or EA-6B, added during upgrades. In a nutshell, all you need are multiple high-precision receiving antennas, and enough computer power to crunch the numbers using differential frequency-of-arrival or time-of-arrival algorithms. Examples:
Rivet Joint: http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Di ... joint.aspx - “The Rivet Joint's modifications are primarily related to its on-board sensor suite, which allows the mission crew to detect, identify and geolocate signals throughout the electromagnetic spectrum.”
EA-6B (ICAP III, ALQ-218 system): http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2 ... stems.html - “The new ALQ-218 receiver is the heart of the ICAP III Prowler, as are the sophisticated algorithms that allow selective-reactive jamming and precision threat geolocation capabilities.”
EA-18G (which also carries the ALQ-218): http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... e-jet.html - “The Growler will also feature the Super Hornet’s new APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which enables simultaneous tracking and targeting of multiple air and ground targets. Combined with the ICAP III AN/ALQ-218 EW Receiver Suite, which provides precision passive radar threat detection, identification, precision geolocation and jammer control, the Growler will have unprecedented situational awareness.”
F-22A (Software Increment 3.1 fielded in 2012): http://www.defensenews.com/article/2011 ... ction-Line - "This increment is designed to defeat air or surface threats in any threat environment; operational test and evaluation is nearly complete," Knuteson wrote. "So far, precision geolocation accuracy exceeds the requirement by 15%, synthetic aperture radar (SAR) map accuracy exceeds specifications by 55%...”
P-8A: http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2 ... ature.html - The AN/ALQ-240(V)1 electronic support measures system will provide a significant increase in capability for operations in the complex maritime battlespace. The adaptive tuning, precise direction finding and geolocation capabilities of the ALQ-240(V)1 will allow P-8A aircrews to detect and identify radar and other electronic threats to the aircraft and Navy vessels.”
Gregg
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
keeping in mind that even a single fighter jet has a rough gauge of range in their RWR... the things are programmed to work out a range estimate based on signal strength and display an emitter as inside or outside lethal range. Its not exactly geolocation mind you...
To go up, pull back on the stick.
To go down, pull back harder...
Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance.
To go down, pull back harder...
Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance.
RE: ESM Systems and Geolocation
ORIGINAL: Sunburn
Put up a pair of RC-135s on widely spaced azimuths from a suspected emitter and check.
Mobiles too.
Sunburn,
I have done this and it works great.
What I find interesting is if after I have the emitter located with a small uncertainty zone and then remove one of the ESM aircraft, the uncertainty zone will often "jump" back into a large, bearing-only zone. It's as if all the information that the previous aircraft had collected is suddenly forgotten.
When I lose an active radar contact with an aircraft or ship the uncertainty zone grows in a circular manner at a reasonable rate. But this doesn't seem to happen with ESM contacts.
I have no idea how you could possibly be modeling this efficiently, but then again you guys are pretty clever. [:)] I can only think of running a Kalman filter on each contact, but when a computing cluster is required to play your game you may lose some customers... [8|]
Yokes