Helicopter vs. Frigate

[Grondoval]

Im really enjoying the recent updates, playing some of the older DLC.
While playing Northern Inferno, specifically the 'The Fast and the Furious' scenario, I noticed some behaviour that prompted me to ask myself 'is this really a realistic outcome?'

I attached a savegame with exactly the situation I´m referring to.

The situation is this:
A Hind-A is approaching my Frigate while flying below 100ft. I cannot shoot at it with Sea Sparrow because of the sea skimmer modifier (1% hit probability) the Hind receives when being engaged. Shooting at it with the Frigates guns is also not effective because of low poh. Vectoring in aircraft to intercept the Hind is also not possible - using any air to air missile is futile because of sea skimmer modifier, and gunning it does not work because of the same reason (in the end my F-5 got shot down by the Hind with its gun ...)

As a result the Hind takes the Frigate apart piece by piece while flying over it in circles, while the guns on the Frigate just miss. Were warships in the 70s really that vulnurable to rotary flying low? I would suspect any (relative speaking) slow flying aircraft coming directly at it would be a good target for FCR guided guns, not to speak overflying the ship.

In my opinion the poh of guns firing at air targets should differentiate if its a fast mover flying at high speeds or a low and slow flying helicopter. At the moment those cases all share the same poh, which is single digit poh in many cases.

[thewood1]

As soon as I started the scenario save, I changed the ships ignore plotted course. I then manually allocated the 76mm and 20mm on the Hind. As soon as I started the scenario and the Hind got a little closer, the ship began firing away. It fired a couple AT-2s that missed and then was destroyed. I ran it four times. Twice the 76mm killed it after firing two AT-2s, Once the 20mm killed it after firing all its AT-2s with one AT-2 hit, and the fourth the Hind got a lucky hit as soon as the scenario start killing a 76mm mount and a 20mm mount. On that last one it eventually chewed up the ship with its cannon but couldn't sink it.

I think the key is let the ship maneuver to avoid the missiles and unmask its guns as needed. I also turned the radars on to see if it made a difference. It doesn't seem to.

[Tcao]

Not sure if this is added with the latest update, or one of the pervious update.
It looks like AA gun hit calculation has more elements in the formula. 4% hit rate (it's actual number should be 3.5%) is not too bad

8/20/1975 3:50:25 PM - Gun (76mm/50 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]) is attacking Zhdanov Det #2 with a base-Ph of 4.4%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 3.7%. Zhdanov Det #2 has nominal agility: 2, adjusted for altitude: 2. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 1.6. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.26 - Agility adjusted to 1.35. High-deflection impact (no effect on agility). Final agility modifier: -14%. Sea-skimmer modifier: -30%. Proximity fuze (Gun (61-80mm)) - Ph increased by 3.5x. Target is subsonic - no alteration to effective flak hit probability.Final Ph: 4%. Result: 2 - HIT

[HalfLifeExpert]

As soon as I started the scenario save, I changed the ships ignore plotted course. I then manually allocated the 76mm and 20mm on the Hind. As soon as I started the scenario and the Hind got a little closer, the ship began firing away. It fired a couple AT-2s that missed and then was destroyed. I ran it four times. Twice the 76mm killed it after firing two AT-2s, Once the 20mm killed it after firing all its AT-2s with one AT-2 hit, and the fourth the Hind got a lucky hit as soon as the scenario start killing a 76mm mount and a 20mm mount. On that last one it eventually chewed up the ship with its cannon but couldn't sink it.

I think the key is let the ship maneuver to avoid the missiles and unmask its guns as needed. I also turned the radars on to see if it made a difference. It doesn't seem to.

That makes sense to me. If you have line of sight (and target is within range of course), your ship's guns really should be able to engage the Hind.

It's pretty rare for a ship to have a gun mount that can engage at a full 360 degrees, so that's probably the issue.

[thewood1]

Its also a lesson and why you should never let an aircraft get that close and why so much money has been invested in SAMs over AA on ships. A frigate has almost no real armor and even an old AT-2 can do some serious damage at times.

[thewood1]

I took a look at the gun arcs for the frigate. The 20mm is pretty restricted and can't fire straight ahead or straight back. Thats why maneuvering to unmask is important. Also noted that the 76 mounts have arc restrictions enough that only one mount can engage straight ahead. The M.22 FCR also has gaps in its coverage.

Again, restricting maneuver is a big factor in the engagements like this. You're basically tying the ship's hands behind its back.

edit: Ran it a couple more times but with WRA not restricting Sparrow shots. Shot the Hind down both times with Sparrows. Took two each time.

[Tcao]

Sparrow's final PH is range between 3%-10%, depending on the intercept angle.
It is slightly better than 76mm gun, if we don't put ROF into the consideration