Cold War Database 1946-1979 Platform Requests

[deepdive]

http://www.himmelfallen.info/w/b7lp5qb5xpkqqk0r.html Historie og utvikling

På bakgrunn av de gode erfaringene man hadde med Terne (våpen) hadde Forsvarets forskningsinstitutt (FFI) tatt for seg nok et missilprogram. Der hvor Terne var til bruk mot ubåter, skulle det nye prosjektet løse utfordringene med å engasjere overflatemål. På denne tiden, altså slutten av 1950-tallet, planla Sjøforsvaret en småbåtmarine basert på motortorpedobåter (MTBer). Klassen som var på tegnebrettet, Storm-klassen, var bestykket med en 75 mm tårnkanon, noe som ga beskjeden virkning i større overflatemål. Sjøforsvaret anmodet i 1959 FFI ved forskningsleder Hans Chr. Christensen om å ta fram en løsning med et autonomt rakettvåpen, og studien fikk kodenavnet ''FIX'' og ble ledet av forsker Nils Grøholdt. Studien var starten til Penguin-prosjektet, som dro i gang i 1961.
KVs ingeniører ble tatt med på utviklingsprosjektet på et tidlig tidspunkt. Praktiske hensyn som å lage produksjonsunderlag og å bygge opp produksjonslinjer kom da tidlig i gang. Et tett samarbeid eksisterte mellom de to partene og Sjøforsvaret ved kapteinløytnant Nils Bro som Marinens prosjektleder. To helt nye fagområder for både FFI og KV ble utforsket, nemlig elektrooptikk i forbindelse med IR-søkeren og treghetsnavigasjon.
Penguin endte opp som et passivt heimende missil med infrarød søker. Oppbygningen var fra tupp til hale slik: 1) infrarød målsøker; 2) gassdrevet styreservo; 3) høydemåler basert på infrarød laser; 4) navigasjonsmodul; 5) stridshode med brannrør; 6) rakettmotor for fluktfasen (gangmotor); 7) rakettmotor for utskytningsfasen (startmotor). Vinger foran, såkalte canardfinner, sørget for styringen, og vinger bak stabiliserte i flukten.
Fil:Seahawk-penguin.jpg
Utviklingsprogrammet til det som ble hetende Penguin Mk 1 ble avsluttet i 1972, og 20 båter av Storm-klassen, seks MTBer av Snøgg-klassen og fem fregatter av Oslo-klassen ble bestykket med Penguin, og dessuten ble noen få systemer levert den tyrkiske marinen. Allerede før Mk 1 var ferdigutviklet ble programmet for Mk 2, nemlig i 1970. KV fikk her en større rolle i utviklingsarbeidet, og en ny søkermodul ble tatt fram og raketten ellers ble digital elektronikk. Missilet fikk nå muligheter til taktisk manøvrering under flukten. Mk 2 ble standardbevæpning på Hauk-klassen fra 1982. Mk 2 ble solgt både til den svenske og greske marine.
I perioden 1979 til ble Penguin Mk 2 kvalifisert for United States Navy. Et nytte produkt ble tatt fram på bakgrunn av det vellykkede prosjektet, og navnet ble Mk 2 Mod 7. Denne ble basert på Mk 3, som var under utvikling i samme periode. Prosjektet gikk fra 1984 til 1990, og ga betydelige leveranser til US Navy. Mk 3 kom på samme tiden, og var tatt fram for å brukes på Luftforsvarets F-16. Startmotoren ble sløyfet, missilet fikk lengre rekkevidde og muligheten for mer sofistikerte manøvre.
Det vellykkede samarbeidet med FFI hadde gitt opphavet til en ny modell for samarbeid mellom forskningsinstitutt og industri, og Sjøforsvaret og andre fornøyde kunder gjorde at KV gjennom sine arvtagere kunne satse videre på sjømålsmissiler med det mer avanserte Naval Strike Missile.

Referanser

Litteratur

Skogen, Erling (red.), Forsvarets forskningsinstitutt: ''Penguin – en målsøkende rakett mot skip'' (http://www.ffi.no/no/Publikasjoner/Docu ... e-nr22.pdf Fra Forsvarets forskningsinstitutts historie, nummer 22 (PDF))

Eksterne lenker

http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00 ... 85889a.pdf Penguin historie fra Forsvarets forskningsinstitutt
http://www.mil.no/start/article.jhtml?articleID=102763 Mil.no: Traff innertier
Kategori:Missiler
Kategori:Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace
cs:Penguin
de:AGM-119 Penguin
en:Penguin (missile)
es:Penguin
hr:Pingvin (projektil)
it:Kongsberg Penguin
he:פינגווין (טיל)
lv:Penguin (raķete)
hu:AGM–119 Penguin
ja:ペンギン (ミサイル)
pl:Penguin
ru:Penguin (ракета)
fi:Penguin
sv:Pingvin (robot)
tr:Penguin
vi:AGM-119 Penguin
zh:AGM-119企鵝反艦飛彈

To add to the confusion, Mk1 Mod5 was still in "service" up to the year 2003.

Bjørn

[Broncepulido]

Apparently from the text only were installed Penguin Mk2 (as standard weapon) in Hauk-class, and only from 1982. Perhaps Hauk-class was without missiles in 1977-1981.

[deepdive]

Mk2 launcher box was sligthly bigger than Mk1 launcher box it is almost impossible to tell them apart unless your on deck, and as i remember it you could load an Mk1 Penguin in an Mk2 box but not the other way around, so i belive those first Hauk`s had 6 Mk1 boxes installed and as Mk2 got availible in enough numbers, they where changed to 4 Mk2`s.

Rumors has it that Israel recieved several missiles, both Mk1 and Mk2, but that would be illigal according to Norwegian export law, but it could explain why there wasn`t enough Mk2 in Norway before 1982

Note that those Mk1`s where upgraded trough time so i belive that the only difference between an
Mk1 Mod5 and an Mk2 Mod 5 is range.

Bjørn

[hellfish6]

#1624 CA 124 Rochester United States Navy 1944-1953 is listed as a category carrier (aviation ship), and shows up on-map as a carrier icon.

[hellfish6]

At some point in the future, could we see more amphibious vehicles added to the DB? I'm reading about/doing a scenario on Korean War amphibious landings and I'm keenly missing the various LVTs, DUKWs and even rocket-firing LSMs. I could provide all the DB info you'd need on all of these, but I suspect you've got access to the same resources I have. I'm happy to do it if it'll help, though.

[.Sirius]

Hi Rocket fitted LCM's are in the DB ID 607 Ill work on the rest

[ClaudeJ]

[center][/center]

Hi there,

let's have a look at the Super Étendard.

Sources:
- "AMD Étendard, Super-Étendard" (1982), Alain Pelletier, ISBN 978-2858825660.
- "Dassault Super Étendard, Les matériels de l'armée de l'air et de l'aéronavale n°10" (2010), Frédéric Lert, ISBN: 978-2352501756.
- "Dassault Super Etendard, Serie Aeronaval Nro.22" (2006), Jorge Félix Núñez Padin, ISBN: None.
- "UCC AN 105 - Manuel Pilote Super Etendard" (1978, revised 1991), Service Central de l'Aéronautique Navale.
- http://www.anciens-cols-bleus.net/
- http://www.checksix-forums.com/ Various fine people actually in the forces.
- http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/pas ... -etendard/
- http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/super-eten ... ard_fr.htm
- http://www.netmarine.net/
- http://www.snecma.com/-military-engines-.html
- http://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/decou ... -modernise

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[*]#1000521 - 625 liter Drop Tank[/color]

There's no "625 liter Drop Tank" on Super Étendard, that was on the Étendard. There is a 600 liter centerline fuel tank ("RP 24" with 480 kg of fuel) and a 595 liter underwing fuel tank ("RP 1 SE" giving 476 kg of fuel).

Thus I suggest to:
- duplicate "#1001598 - 600 liter Drop Tank", name it "600 liter Drop Tank (RP 24)" and set its Fuel quantity to 480 kg;
- duplicate "#1001598 - 600 liter Drop Tank", name it "595 liter Drop Tank (RP 1 SE)" and set its Fuel quantity to 476 kg.

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[*]#1002942 - Super Etendard -- France (Navy), 1979 (CWDB)
[/color]

General Data:
- Empty Weight: 6605 (with pilot, w/o pilot it's 6510, unsure what is the standard in the DB).
- Max Weight: 11 900 (max T/O weight from carrier).

Sensors: delete the "Spirale" DECM, none of my sources mention any internal DECM solution.

Mounts:
Unsurprisngly to any early european jets enthusiast, the Super Étendard's internal two DEFA 552 30 mm cannons actually are mounted onto a gun pack ("Châssis canon" in French parlance) hosting them and their ammunition, as you see can on that neat picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... endard.jpg

To make room for electronic goodies it ofen have to be removed, as you can see in that documentary describing how the emblematic Exocet loadout is being prepared:
http://youtu.be/5dHsYhuXeZw?t=28m30s (pay attention at 28:38 and 29:10)


Thus, I do suggest to:
- delete "30mm DEFA 552 x 2 (125 rnds x 2)" from all variants' mounts;
- clone "#1001304 - 30mm DEFA 552 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]", to give that new version 250 rounds (125 per gun) and set its weight to 356 kg (which is its fully loaded mass, while it's 237 kg without rounds. All figures are from Mirage 5 BA manual U-1-M5BA, "partie Planche", sheet 1-121).

Loadouts:
- Edit all loadouts where you do have 2 "625 liter Drop Tank" to have the "595 liter Drop Tank (RP 1 SE)" you just created instead.
- Edit all loadouts where you do have 1 "625 liter Drop Tank" to have the "600 liter Drop Tank (RP 24)" you just created instead.
- "(Ferry)": add the new 30mm DEFA 552 gun pack (with its 250 rounds).(C2 loadout per the manual).
- "A/A: R.550 Magic": delete the "625 liter Drop Tank", add the new 30mm DEFA 552 gun pack (with its 250 rounds). (I1 loadout per the manual).
- "AM.39 Exocet", add a couple of optional "#1000037 - R.550 Magic 1" (loadout "AS5" from the manual). http://www.aerohispanoblog.com/wp-conte ... 8a1da2.jpg
- edit "SNEB 68mm Rockets" to have the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds), 2 new "595 liter Drop Tank (RP 1 SE)" and 36 "#1000310 - SNEB 68mm Rocket" (2 launchers of 18 rockets each).(loadout AP5 in the manual. http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/super-eten ... d-0092.jpg http://i22.servimg.com/u/f22/11/70/61/26/sue110.jpg)
- edit "SNEB 68mm Rockets, Short-Range" to have the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds) and 72 "#1000310 - SNEB 68mm Rocket" (4 launchers of 18 rockets each). (loadout AP1 in the manual.)
- create a loadout with the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds), 2 "#1001394 - 1100 liter Drop Tank" and 36 "#1000310 - SNEB 68mm Rocket" (2 launchers of 18 rockets each). (loadout AP3 in the manual. http://pmm-belfort.fr/wp-content/upload ... _1983.jpeg)
- edit "T.25 250kg GPB" loadout to have 4 "#1001393 - T.25 250kg GPB" bombs, 2 new "595 liter Drop Tank (RP 1 SE)" plus the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds). (loadout A5 in the manual. http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/17/41/08/60/parkin11.jpg)
- edit "T.25 250kg GPB, Short-Range" loadout to have 6 "#1001393 - T.25 250kg GPB" bombs plus the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds). (loadout A6 in the manual.)
- to "T.200 400kg GPB" loadout, add the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds). (loadout A4 in the manual.)
- to "T.200 400kg GPB", Short-Range" loadout, add the new "30mm DEFA 552 gun pack" (with its 250 rounds). (loadout A1 in the manual.)

Propulsion:
- Engine name: "Snecma ATAR 8K50" (http://i.gyazo.com/7a2adf82adfa6c5861ce8ec0ad577a73.png)
- Military Static Thrust at S/L: 4844 (4750 daN).
- Afterburner Static Thrust at S/L: 0 (doesn't have AB).
- Military Static SFC at S/L: 1.77 (was 2 kg/h/kg).
- Specific fuel flow with full AB: 0 (doesn't have AB).

It simply is a non-afterburning version of Mirage's Atar 9k50.

- Ceiling: 45 000 ft

Fuel: Quantity: 2598 kg (3247 l @0.8kg/l)


That's it.


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Some DB related questions (so I can formulate my suggestions better):
- do the loadouts have an ID # and, if so, where one can get it?
- are you able to edit several loadout at once or you do have to edit one loadout at a time?
- are you able to clone/duplicate loadouts or you have to create a loadout from scratch?
- do you name the loadouts yourself or the name is generated automatically from its content?

[hellfish6]

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Rocket fitted LCM's are in the DB ID 607 Ill work on the rest

My bad - I was looking for them under the United States subheading, not generic.

As for LVTs, I'd like to see the following models (used past 1946):

LVT-4/Buffalo IV (not sure if the Brits used their 20mm versions beyond WWII)
LVT-3 (and/or improved LVT-3C)
LVT(A)-5 amphibious tank with 75mm gun. Used by Nationalist China and the PLA as well (with some modifications). France too?
LVTP-5 (used in Vietnam, still used by the Philippines)
LVTH-6 with 105mm howitzer

[hellfish6]

I can't find Chinese SAM systems (specifically the HQ-1/2 series). Is this another case where I just can't find them in the DB?

[HudsonGame]

I want to thank you for adding HMS Hood. By the way, she was a battlecruiser. Anyway, thank you very much.

[hellfish6]

I'd like to request an entry for the Roberts-class monitors of the RN (HMS Roberts and HMS Abercrombie). I have all the specs if you need them. Since they were used as training and barracks ships after the war this is obviously low-priority, but they weren't actually scrapped until '55 at the earliest. I'd kinda like to play with them (a Suez or Korea what-if). They're such interesting ships.

[.Sirius]

Hi thanks and noted I've the specs already for that class and its on the thing's to do list

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

I'd like to request an entry for the Roberts-class monitors of the RN (HMS Roberts and HMS Abercrombie). I have all the specs if you need them. Since they were used as training and barracks ships after the war this is obviously low-priority, but they weren't actually scrapped until '55 at the earliest. I'd kinda like to play with them (a Suez or Korea what-if). They're such interesting ships.

[MaxManus81]

Great update, but found a few things that I would like to report.

Leahy class cruiser, the 1967-72 (#781) got the RIM-2F Terrier, but reverts to RIM-2E with the 1972-76 (#76) version. Same goes for the Decatur class destroyer. The 1972-75 version (#768) is ment to have RIM-24 Tartar (described as such in the DB viewer), but armed with RIM-66 Standard. It reverts to RIM-24 on the 1975-82 version (#769).

Also all RIM-2D Terrier missiles in US ship magazines are the conventional version(#669), despite loadouts of the magazines (2-4 missiles per ship) make me believe they should be the nuclear tipped version(#1088). Same goes for the De Zeven Provincien class when armed with RIM-2 and Andrea Doria class when armed with the RIM-2E.

[Coiler12]

Not the biggest or most important, since I can add the launchers to a normal Alfa in the editor, but the Project 705A Alfa SSGN mod would be interesting.

[poosd]

Hello,
I submitted a previous request about correcting the U-boats guns (or lack thereof) some time ago and got a response
from .Sirius stating that it was received.

(the "quote" below is a brief excerpt from that email).

Mean time, I was trying to do a work around and add a mount and weapon to the database entry for the VIIC entry
(the 8.8cm SK C/35 Naval gun) when I discovered that there is no Weapon entry for a 8.8cm (88mm) SK C/35 Naval gun.
There is one 88mm gun listed but I don't believe that it is accurate for the type VII boat.
I didn't check to see if there is a Weapon entry for the 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/45 deck gun for the Type IXB boat.
If I'm overlooking these weapons in the CWDB Weapons, would someone direct me to them.

Thanks,
Dean

[quote]ORIGINAL: poosd - edited

Came across this while dealing with the Generic German U-boat listing in the CWDB

Missing U Boat guns. Below from Wikipedia...
Type VIIC. 1(2? fore and aft of conning tower) × 8.8 cm SK C/35 naval gun with 220 rounds, various antiaircraft weaponry (2 cm (0.79 in)anti-aircraft guns.
Perhaps the most famous VIIC boat was U-96, featured in the movie Das Boot."

"Type IXB.
10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/45 deck gun with 180 rounds on a Utof mount.
The last piece of armament that the Type IXB submarines were equipped with were the standard 2 cm (0.79 in)
anti-aircraft guns.

Just found the same for the Type XXI (CWDB Database #464).
Info from Wikipedia.
Armament (Guns): 4 x 2 cm (0.8 in) anti-aircraft guns (*guns are not listed in entry for #464 in db).

[MR_BURNS2]

#3516 - P-3B Orion

Question regarding sonobuoy loadout. Virtually every other P-3 variant in the CWDB carries 100 passive buoy´s and 40 active, while this one carries 40 and 40.

DB error or actual historical loadout?

[Broncepulido]

Part of the problem is sonobuoy size.
In Western standards:
A-Size =1
A-Strech = 1 + longer lenght.
B-Size = 1 + bigger diameter.
G-Size =1/2 x A (half lenght than A-Size)(Denominated A/2 size in France).
F-Size =1/3 X A (one third of lenght than A-Size)(Denominated A/3 size in France).

I think the common values of 84-87 in P-3 are referred to A-Size.
For years working on a sonobuoys table, but the data are very scarce.

As idea of reduction in size, the Soviet RGB-N Iva (1955) was of 45 kg weight, and later with the same performances the RGB-NM Chinara (1961) was of only 15 Kg weight.

[pjcoia]

How about the US Sentinel system with the relevant ABMs? Not operational long, but impressive hardware.

PC

[RyanCrierie]

Request name change of #3105 YF-12A to F-12B; as that was the production version; with 93 being ordered by Congress, but effectively cancelled by McNamara; who impounded the funds appropriated by Congress and didn't release them.

The USAF planned on eventually getting 100 built and using this amount to support 6 squadrons of 16 x F-12Bs, with three on the east coast and three on the west coast at the following locations:

EAST COAST:
Otis AFB (Cape Cod, MA) (3 x Squadrons)

WEST COAST:
Paine AFB (Everett, WA) (3 x Squadrons)

[RyanCrierie]

Aircraft #3118 XF-108 Rapier has several incorrect statistics:

0.) The title says : "XF-108 Rapier -- United States (Navy) when it was a USAF project.

Second, if it had entered service, it would have been designed F-108A.

1.) The amount of fuel is listed as 11,115 kg; when according to primary source documents:

F-108A SAC (12 June 1959)
http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-108A ... e_1959.pdf

The F-108 carried 7,109 gallons of JP-6 at 6.55 lb/gal = 46,563.95 lbs = 21,121.1 kg.

2.) The F-108 never carried 20mm cannons.
Given that the program was cancelled on 23 September 1959; the 12 June 1959 SAC previously linked should be regarded as 'definite'.

That primary source document lists nothing for Rockets, Guns, or Bombs; but only 3 x GAR-9 (AIM-47).

3.) The F-108 would have carried Nuclear Falcon -- while at the National Archives II in 2009; I found several photographs of the F-108 Mockup circa early 1959.

The Revelant photo is this one of the F-108's Fire Control Operator Station:

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3 ... &mode=view

Lower Left Panel. Look at ARMAMENT SELECTOR.

Notice how one selection says HE and another says SPL.

SPL is "Special", which was an euphemism for nuclear weapons back then.

4.) It appears you have put the SFC for the J93 in english units instead of the metric that the game engine calls for.

I've found sources that say the J93 had a SFC of 0.7 lb/lbf/hr in dry and 1.8 lb/lbf/hr in reheat; which lines up almost exactly with the in game stats of 0.8 kg/h/kg (dry) and 1.9 kg/h/hr (wet).

5.) Climb rate is given as 4,320 fpm (average) and 12,970 fpm (instanteous); when in the 1959 SAC; it's given as variously:

Rate of Climb at SL: 32,600 fpm (Takeoff Weight)
Max Rate of Climb at SL: 44,000 fpm (Combat Weight)

6.) The Range profile for Loadout #7577 (3 x AIM-47A) is given as: 135 minutes at 150 nautical mile intercept radius. Outbound at 36,000 feet and military power, return at 36,000 feet and cruise. No Form up time. 10% reserves.

In reality (as seen on the SAC); the intercept radiuses for the F-108 ranged from 350~ nm.i to 1,000 n.mi; and the 36,000 ft altitude is when the F-108 'stepped up' from military power to minimum reheat to accelerate to maximum cruising speeds and altitudes.

As it is, 'stock' XF-108 in CWDB; burns about 1380 kg/min of fuel at cruise altitude (70,000 ft) and cruise speed (Mach 3.08 or 1,770 kts); giving a fully loaded Rapier with 11,000 kg of fuel about eight minutes of flying time. [:'(]