WPE and WPP day

[AlvaroSousa]

I am working on the games today....

The CV targeting post got me thinking about something. I have had some trouble with my current naval system. The poll said players were basically split between what I have now and a sea zone system for WP2.

I was thinking what if I got naval stacking wrong? What if I went the wrong way in how I approached this and smaller forces are better?

I was looking up how large a groups of ships were.

Task units = 3-5 ships
Task groups = 4-10 ships
Task forces = 2-5 task groups.

What if I reduced the limit from 20 ships down to 6 groups WPP, 3 groups WPE. About the size of a task unit.

Large 20 naval group fleets are just slug fests I had to adjust for in a variety of ways. The carnage is huge. Smaller groups lower the variance and allow fleet retreats to take place more often.

Think about this. I might have to test it. Certainly I would be rewriting A.I. scripting.

[kennonlightfoot]

Are you planning for any kind of ships in task force of 6? As in, 6 CV's but no other support ships?

Basically saying that a CV just isn't a carrier but a Carrier with the appropriate number of Cruisers and Destroyer's that would normally make up a Carrier Task Force. US operated this way with smaller task forces, 2-3 carriers, but operating in support distance of one another. Not as sure about Japanese handling of carrier task forces.

Something to think about. Instead of ship units representing primary ship the group is build around. A carrier like Yorktown or battleship like Iowa. Why not make each unit represent a Task Force. Probably for Carriers it would still be the fleet carrier but for Battleships, Cruisers, and Destroyers it would represent multiple ships and their support.

So you might have something more like Battleship bombardment task force or Battleship Surface Task force.

[ncc1701e]

Yes, BBs that were providing AAA for the CV fleet.

[AlvaroSousa]

All the counters already are considered to have escorting CLs and DDs with them. It's just a thought right now. It would also make the A.I. play better with this limitation.

[ncc1701e]

Main question is how to translate this into the game:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_order_of_battle

[AlvaroSousa]

That's easy

First Main Fleet
3 BG
1 CVL (labeled CVE escorts)
First Carrier Striking Force
4 CV
2 BG
Second Fleet (invasion force)
1 CVL
2 BG
2 CA
1 DD
Advance Force
2 SS
North Area Force #1
1 CV
1 CVL
1 CA
North Area Force #2
4 BB
1 DD

[AlvaroSousa]

Even even works in this OOB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippin ... _of_battle

[aoffen]

My only concern would be the lower stacking limits vs hex size. Does it result in too low a density of ships vs reality.

[Hairog]

As you may recall, we had a discussion about what organization to use for the naval units. I suggested the historical units of Carrier Divisions (1-2 ships) Battleship divisions (1-3) CA divisions (3-7) DD squadrons (5-10). You take these separate units and make task forces.

It works perfectly with the units you already have that can be built. Just change the names to what they historically were, ie. carrier division, bb division etc. You could also give the divisions names based on the lead ship for those who like to sink the Yamamoto or Enterprise.
Enterprise carrier division, Yamamoto battleship division.

In addition you could play up big the fact that players could design their own Taskforces. Bombardment TF would have an extra BB division, Screening TF would have a BB division and a couple of extra DD squadrons, Hunter killer TF could have CVV and extra DD squadrons. Naval Grognards will love this.

It fits the game system, and is historically accurate.

Now if you could figure out a way to have the players name their task forces.

Task Force Wikipedia info

[Hairog]

Some unit graphics.

[Hairog]

more

[Hairog]

still more

[Hairog]

you guessed it

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

That's easy

First Main Fleet
3 BG
1 CVL (labeled CVE escorts)
First Carrier Striking Force
4 CV
2 BG
Second Fleet (invasion force)
1 CVL
2 BG
2 CA
1 DD
Advance Force
2 SS
North Area Force #1
1 CV
1 CVL
1 CA
North Area Force #2
4 BB
1 DD

Indeed, so the idea is to limit naval stacks to 6 groups in WPP and 3 groups in WPE.
The good thing is that it will limit shore bombardment in WPE in particular.

So, on turn one, what does it mean for the Kidõ Butai?
Only 6 CV sqd in the stack?

[kennonlightfoot]

And, with a six limit wouldn't the players still use stacks of 6 CV's with no other ship types?
I haven't looked at the final numbers for the group but it will still be the most powerful formation.

[AlvaroSousa]

That can be the only exception due to surprise for historical excitement.

What I will probably end up doing is making a separate small force scenario.

As for task force names. I do like the idea. But implementing them in the counters would be incredibly tedious for players. Every time, you create or dissolve a a group of ships it has to be renamed. Second is that the font will be too small for the counter. It will have too much information. Maybe a hover can be done. Having players change unmutable strings is a pain in the ass.

Only other way I could do it is just automatic naming.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa
What if I reduced the limit from 20 ships down to 6 groups

The AI would be far more competitive. It has a tendency of doing this already.

I would still probably move 3 groups around together, at least for my main fleets.

My feeling is that perhaps there are a tad too many CVs in the game and not enough CAs and DDs.

A balanced TF would have 2 CVs, 1 BB, 1 CA and 1 DD.

But whatever, sounds like a good idea to me.

[ncc1701e]

What is the role of a CA in a task force? BB is anti-air. DD is anti-sub. But, what is usually the role of a CA? I honestly don't know.

[*Lava*]

CAs are anti-air and served as support ships for BBs. The US fleets at Coral Sea and Midway had only cruisers and destroyers.

BBs were traditionally anti-ship but because they were well armed were favored for their anti-air capability as well.

[YueJin]

In the game CA's have a rather interesting new role now that their night attack range has been increased to 12 hexes. Load a couple of them up with the torpedo specialisation and they can smash blockade groups immune from carrier or air attack.