Still think about underestimated AH-64 in AB

[exsonic01]

I discussed during beta before, but I still think this should be considered & discussed again.

One of the greatest drawback of current AH-64 in AB is the absence of LOAL fire mode. With the support from laser guidance of ground unit FIST or COLT, Apache can launch hellfire from out-of-LOS position. Then laser designator guides the missile to the target. This way, Apache can engage from behind the hill or treeline, keep concealment, launch 16 hellfires, then RTB.

Current modeling of Apache in AB (and most of military RTS games too) is not even close to the full potential. In AB, Apache can fire hellfire via LOBL mode only. When I see Apache gunships engaged by field AA units or SPAAGs, I think this is kinda ridiculous. They have ability to fight behind the hill, without worrying about field AA fires. But they just can't do that in AB.

One other serious issue is Hellfire flight trajectory. For LOAL-Hi/Lo and LOBL (current AB Hellfire launch mode), Hellfire soars to the specific height, and drops to the target. Angle is quite steep, it should be considered as top-attack, and should be able to defeat all PACT tanks in this game regardless of frontal armor and frontal ERA. Hellfire-A does not equipped with tandem warhead, but top-attack trajectory still makes it lethal against top tier PACT armors.

But in AB, Hellfires always hit the front armor. [sigh]



As a result, Apache is not showing its full combat ability and efficiency, not even 50% of them in this game. Yet it has the most expensive price tag among gunships, more than 700pt. I think this is unfair and unbalanced. Current model of Apache in AB should have same level of price tag (~500) with other top tier gunships, because Apache in this game is the same level with them, despite the fact that the real Apache in 80s was much more advanced then any competitors.

How about make 2 model of Apache in this game?
current price Apache, LOBL + top attack.
800~900pt price Apache, LOAL/LOBL + top attack + 16 Hellfires (no rocket pods)

For LOAL mode, is this possible to make Hellfire guidance, using HQ unit's LoS? Assuming that company FIST is joined in HQ, we could assume HQ unit's LoS to laser guidance. This way, using LOAL mode, only targets in HQ's LoS can be engaged. This can be applied to airstrike LGBs and Copperheads.

Or, we could make a new infantry model of FIST team with Humvee or M113, or designated FISTV. Then regard their LoS to laser designation and guidance.

[nikolas93TS]

Do you possibly have a screenshot regarding front armor hits? That was true for beta, but it has been since fixed to top-attack, which also makes adding very rare (by 1991) Hellfire-F superfluous because difference in practical terms would be nil.

Apache high price comes also due to thermal imagining sights, which make it incredibly strong in nighttime and allowing it to operate with impunity unless opponent has radar units.

Laser designation, guidance, MMW radars etc. are mechanisms that we will have to implement if we gonna venture post-1991, but currently it is too much work for a handful of units. Forward observers also require AI modifications.

[exsonic01]

I didn't know top attack and F hellfire are already introduced in AB. Thanks to let me know anyway, I will take a screen shot if I see those behaviors during game. It is possible that I confused with missed hellfire with blocked hellfire. But I will closely see again.

[nikolas93TS]

No, F variant is not in game, I just said it is unnecessary as being top-down means even basic version will penetrate with ease.

Regarding misses, I did a short search on laser guided missiles kill probability. It seems publicly available assessments on the actual accuracy of precision weapons is quite scarce (which makes sense due to OPSEC), but I got some rough indications even if such issue will require a further scientific scrutiny in future. There is an Australian military study published in 2003 which found that 45.5% of laser-guided weapons used by US forces in the opening days of Operation Desert Storm missed their target due to poor weather, technical malfunction or pilot error (although this include laser guided bombs etc.). The report goes on to criticize arms manufacturers claims of "one target, one bomb", which apparently proved false in the combat conditions of Operation Desert Storm. Another indication can be exercise Desert Victory from February 1999, where specific Hellfire kill probability was rated as 25% for stationary, dug-in targets and 35% for moving targets. In later exercise Urgent Victory in 2001, the kill probability was 70% for all targets, which imply kill probability may vary among units (and possibly other factors I was not able to gain, such as weather, missile variant etc.) Also the CEP (assuming 50% hit rate) of Hellfire missile is being reported as anywhere between 3 and 7 meters (most commonly 4-5m) which corroborate well with above mentioned figures and what we see in actual game.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS

No, F variant is not in game, I just said it is unnecessary as being top-down means even basic version will penetrate with ease.

Regarding misses, I did a short search on laser guided missiles kill probability. It seems publicly available assessments on the actual accuracy of precision weapons is quite scarce (which makes sense due to OPSEC), but I got some rough indications even if such issue will require a further scientific scrutiny in future. There is an Australian military study published in 2003 which found that 45.5% of laser-guided weapons used by US forces in the opening days of Operation Desert Storm missed their target due to poor weather, technical malfunction or pilot error (although this include laser guided bombs etc.). The report goes on to criticize arms manufacturers claims of "one target, one bomb", which apparently proved false in the combat conditions of Operation Desert Storm. Another indication can be exercise Desert Victory from February 1999, where specific Hellfire kill probability was rated as 25% for stationary, dug-in targets and 35% for moving targets. In later exercise Urgent Victory in 2001, the kill probability was 70% for all targets, which imply kill probability may vary among units (and possibly other factors I was not able to gain, such as weather, missile variant etc.) Also the CEP (assuming 50% hit rate) of Hellfire missile is being reported as anywhere between 3 and 7 meters (most commonly 4-5m) which corroborate well with above mentioned figures and what we see in actual game.

I know what material you are citing and I read that too. This is because of backscattering issue, where the guidance laser beam or reflected laser beam from target to seeker is interfered by dust or any other material in the air. All guidance beam during cold war used near-IR spectrum, theoretically molecules or dust or steam in the clean air should not interfere the beam. But in reality, in battlefield, there are black smoke with full of soot, flame and fire from burning buildings and vehicle wrecks. So many interfere sources.

In the desert environment, fine sands and fine dusts can be airborne very easily by wind or by bombs or fast moving vehicles or etc, and if there are good amount of them in the air, it can interfere near-IR beam very easily. Backscatter issue of near-IR laser solved later, after longbow Apache and longbow hellfire is introduced with MMW F&F feature.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a334561.pdf
MMW is also not perfect. If you see this report conclusion, in general, MMW works great in foggy environment. But in rain, IR is better than MMW. And in storm MMW and IR both works poorly. So in thunderstorm environment, both IR and radar performance should be influenced in considerable degree. That is why most of modern tanks use MMW and IR both.

Because of this issue, usage of Copperhead guidance 155mm munition has some degree of limitation / requirement to use during combat operation. If you check
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/jp3_09_1.pdf
and check FM 6-30 and FM 6-20, you will see smoke, weather, fine dust in the air, and etc can influence the guidance of Copperhead 155mm guidance shell. I guess this would be more or less similar for AGM-114. And Copperhead was very very expensive. Copperhead is equipped with shape charge so should be able to kill any PACT tanks, but I guess any army commander would prefer to use just DPICMs to kill tanks.



I think current Hellfire accuracy is OK in AB. I experience misses, but that is OK. It is very expected in battlefield environment (but like I said in original comment, maybe I confused the missed hellfire as blocked hellfire, and that is why I thought top attack is not introduced in AB yet. But I will check later) If you guys can describe more elaborate/distinguish such interfere features in very detailed manner (like distinguish battlefield smoke in LoS, amount of fine dust from ground based on terrain and weather and etc), that would be great, but I guess that would be too much.

I agree F-variants might be overkill if current hellfire in AB has top attack. I'm just saying F-variants were operational from 1990, so if you guys have some free time to use, you could introduce them as well, just for the historical accuracy.

[exsonic01]

I just wish AB introduce the laser guidance feature and LOAL mode of Apache, because this is good for historical accuracy. Even from cold war, Apache doesn't need to worry about field AA, because it is possible to engage against enemy tanks without direct LOS. This NLOS engagement capability is prime asymmetric merit of the Apache.

FIST team system was first tested during 77~78 from 82nd airborne, and it spread out to all divisions and brigades of US army until 1980. It was possible for FIST teams to guide Hellfire/Copperhead/LGBs using G/VLLD. G/VLLD use near IR beam, possible to guide bomb 3km against moving target, 5km against stationary target. During cold war, FIST teams were attached to all companies of infantry, armor, cavalry, mechanized infantry, air assault brigade. US army were able to attempt precision air strike using LGB or Hellfire from company level, at least from 1980. FIST team also had laser rangerfinder and digital messenger. COLT team from brigade / division were also possible to guide precision munitions.

I'm not sure about Russians though.
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/krasnopol.htm
They had Krasnopol, deployed to Red army from 1986. And of course they had LGBs for airstrike (early models were copy of US LGBs, which were acquired from fallen South Vietnam air force) It mentions they used 1D22, 1D20, or 1D15 laser target designator, but not sure from which unit. I couldn't find any cold war Russian artillery FO or air controller equipped with laser designator in FM 100-2-1/2/3 series, but maybe I missed... FM 100-2-1 comments about forward air controllers used electromagnetic measure for air strike guidance, and I guess this as laser guidance capability. FACs were attached to army/division/regiment level. But I failed to find about artillery FO equipment and laser designator. Let me know if you find one. (One interesting comment of above link is the laser warning detectors. I never knew they were deployed from cold war. But this is totally different story.)
Also, I'm not sure whether the cold war Russian gunships had such NLOS engagement capability like LOAL mode of hellfire or not. As far as I know, smart guidance of ATGMs from Russian gunship was possible from KA52 or Mi28N model, which were deployed from mid 2000s.

Anyway, those features were possible from pre-1990s. So, it would be fair to depict those NLOS engagement features in the AB.

ps: I found those info from http://community.battlefront.com/topic/ ... nt=1587947

http://fkoz.feodosia.com.ua/main3.phtml?link=26
http://pribory-si.ru/catalog/4508/5021/%C2%A0

It seems that they were attached to artillery FO vehicles, you mentioned one recce company per one regiment, right? I think my guess was quite close But I'm not sure which one was cold war one among 1D22, 1D20, or 1D15 laser target designator.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01
Backscatter issue of near-IR laser solved later, after longbow Apache and longbow hellfire is introduced with MMW F&F feature

Correction should be made to my previous comment.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... m-114k.htm
Solution for backscatter/obscurent issue + ECCM feature updated from K-variant hellfire 2, not from longbow Hellfire.

[exsonic01]

Check those two papers. There was accuracy issue of hellfire but those were recoverable by pilots and proper training and practice. Lots of interesting comments and reports.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/220/215705.pdf

(1) during Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm, the Hellfire missile was lethal against a wide variety of targets other than tanks;
(2) the limited data available on the Hellfire's experience in Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm indicate that several Army units did not achieve the required 90-percent hit rate;
(3) Hellfire project office data on 71 missiles fired by 6 different units between October 1990 and February 1991 show average hit rate of 79 percent;
(4) individual hit rates ranged from 25 to 100 percent, with 3 units scoring below the required percentage;
(5) at least 2 units increased their hit rates from 40 percent to about 90 percent after receiving additional training for using techniques designed to maximize Hellfire accuracy, but the Army does not practice those techniques during training because training simulators do not replicate obscurrants and pilot/gunners generally do not fire live missiles in peacetime due to cost;
(6) during Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm, Apache helicopters launched five Hellfire missiles without a launch command, but only one of the launches caused any damage or injuries; and
(7) the Army stated that a defective switch and poor wiring connections caused the uncommanded launches.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/160/151734.pdf

Problems were also experienced with the Hellfire missile system. The majority of these problems related to environmental conditions such as blowing sand and smoke. Of 167 Apache pilots and maintainers responding to GAO'S questions, 81 indicated that they had experienced some problems with reliability and accuracy.

The 11 Apache units GAO visited had fired about 1,000 Hellfire missiles, and data provided by Apache personnel showed that the Hellfire’s accuracy ranged from 40 to 100 percent-averaging about 76 percent.

However, 81 of 167 Apache pilots and maintainers indicated they had experienced some reliability and accuracy problems with the missile system. Unit personnel could not always pinpoint reasons that some Hellfire missiles had missed targets. However, they cited as possible reasons (1) environmental conditions such as blowing sand, smoke, and haze, which at times prevented the Apache’s targeting laser from locking on to intended targets; (2) mechanical
problems with the missile launcher; and (3) a weak targeting system laser power unit, which guides the missile.

Environmental conditions were frequently cited as explanations for the Hellfire missile’s misses. Several conditions interfered with the targeting laser beam, which guides the missile, causing it to break its lock on the target and therefore miss shots. Some pilots experienced “backscatter,” a condition that occurs when the targeting laser’s energy is reflected off obscurants such as blowing sand. That condition interrupted the laser beam on the way to the target, and in these cases, the missile’s laser seeker locked on to the backscatter, causing the missile to miss the target.
Another condition that interfered with the targeting laser is known as “smoke contrails,” according to pilots. Smoke sometimes came off the rear of a launched missile when the temperature reached dew point, interfering with the laser tracking beam and causing the missile to miss the target.

Pilots from a unit located at Illeshiem, Germany, told us that they would fire a Hellfire and then lase the target once the missile had left the rails in order to overcome the backscatter problem. This practice is known as
“lock-on-after-launch.” Apache pilots from the l/lst told us they had overcome the problem by waiting for the smoke to clear before locking on with the laser. Apache pilots from the 1/24th had used other aircraft to remotely lase targets because of smoke contrail conditions.

I'm not sure about accuracy setting of Hellfire in AB, but I guess 76% ~ 79% might be the proper one based on those reports. It seems that backscatter and other mechanical issues were already known, but they were all possible to be reduced by proper training, and LOAL mode launch. I guess the fire mode of hellfire which pilots commented in last quote might be a LOAL-DIR. Launch missile, wait for a while and move position, start lasing while Hellfire is in delay in the air, then guide. And 1/24th used traditional hunter-killer team approach.

I guess AB should introduce observer LOS, to realistically describe guidance munitions in the future. LOAL mode can escape from backscatter or smoke trail around the Apache (the one launched the A variant Hellfire), but if target is covered by battlefield smoke or fine dust, any LOAL will also miss. Those issue were solved from Hellfire 2 (K-Hellfire). I guess G/VLLD laser designator beam also used near IR, so Copperhead couldn't escape from similar issues, as shown in FM 6 series. I guess any cold war laser designators would be the same before 1991, time frame of AB. If "LoS of observer" feature is nicely introduced in AB, this will nicely demonstrate LGB, Hellfire, other beam riding (SALH or similar) munitions.