Future Plans

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: XLVIIIPzKorp

ORIGINAL: Warhorse

From a graphics standpoint, love how JT re-used the 2d graphics from one game to another!

IIRC Battleground Ardennes was the first WWII tactical to have a 3D isometric map view. I remember seeing this advertised in gaming magazines and going absolutely crazy looking at those 3D screen shots. You can really see how CS has it's roots way back in this game. Design credit: John Tiller and Jim Rose.

I missed this one, but I recall what a game changer the original East Front was way back then, too. All the detail!

[tevans]

ORIGINAL: budd
My point is i don't see the difference.It seems to me your parsing the terms game/engine to fit your discussion points. Honestly you must see how your statement I've highlighted above fits a whole bunch of games released as new games that would span across genres of games.I think my AGEOD example fits your criteria perfectly. From what i can see Berto is doing exactly what Tiller is doing for the series he has taken over programming for, and they have stated that most of the legacy code is removed. Using your new house analogy, if you tear a house down to the studs and rebuild, is that a new house? does that differ from just slapping paint on the house and calling it new?

I think i'll leave the discussion here, i'll read your reply and leave it at that. It seems we're heading for a useless circle, restating our discussion points. Appreciate the discussion, good day and good gaming.

Not really parsing the terms game and engine. My whole point is nothing new games aren't being created. Just an enhanced gaming system with new combat theaters. That's all. Not all new combat theaters since we're going to end up getting West Front, East Front and Rising Sun all over again. My point is that what's being done amounts to nothing more than modding. Most of the legacy code has been removed but not all. So they're still using some. They're also using the same game systems too.

Look at CS Middle East. They did nice work taking Divided Ground and enhancing it. They added a lot of new things. But the basic game systems are still in place. Movement is the same. Combat is the same. Stats for the units are still in the same places and still work the same way. It has to be that way too or else it ceases to be the Campaign Series. That's my point about the new games and modding. What they're doing is done by modders every day. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. All I'm saying is that it doesn't add up to a brand new game. Maybe enhanced with new combat theaters but not a new game.

Using my house analogy, if you tear the house completely down and rebuild it then it's a new house. If you use any part of the old house such as the foundation or studs then it becomes a remodeled house. In the case of the Campaign Series existing systems that Tiller designed are being used and built upon. The foundation that Tiller laid down is still being used. So anything done shouldn't be considered new or original.

Tiller and his design group have done the same exact thing with some of his other series of games by releasing 'Gold' versions. The 'Gold' versions just enhance older existing versions. They change code, graphics and data just like Jason claims is being done here. But they don't claim the 'Gold' versions are brand new games. They're upgrades. Anybody buying a new Tiller game automatically gets the upgraded version. Current owners can upgrade their older versions for free by providing proof of purchase for those older versions. Upgrades. Not new games. Everything Jason described to me that they're doing with this series amounts to the same thing and all of it can be done through modding. They're enhancing and upgrading an existing game system. Modders do the same thing with games every day.

That's it. I'm done. I've had my say. Nice conversation and good gaming. If I've offended you with anything I've said please accept my apologies.

[Crossroads]

This will be my final post on the issue as well.

ORIGINAL: tevans
Not really parsing the terms game and engine. My whole point is nothing new games aren't being created. Just an enhanced gaming system with new combat theaters. That's all. Not all new combat theaters since we're going to end up getting West Front, East Front and Rising Sun all over again. My point is that what's being done amounts to nothing more than modding. Most of the legacy code has been removed but not all. So they're still using some. They're also using the same game systems too.

You have a unique definition for a new game, and you seem to insist on it. Each to their own. Pretty much all new games nowadays are constructed using a game engine, as been pointed out many times. But again, each to their own.

ORIGINAL: tevans
Look at CS Middle East. They did nice work taking Divided Ground and enhancing it. They added a lot of new things. But the basic game systems are still in place. Movement is the same. Combat is the same. Stats for the units are still in the same places and still work the same way. It has to be that way too or else it ceases to be the Campaign Series. That's my point about the new games and modding. What they're doing is done by modders every day. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. All I'm saying is that it doesn't add up to a brand new game. Maybe enhanced with new combat theaters but not a new game.

We did not “take Divided Ground and enhanced it”. It is a brand new Campaign Series game.

I just wrote a few posts back there is not one single line of code from Divided Ground codebase on CS Middle East. All unit capabilities past 1945 were created by us. Heloes and refueling, Air levels, SAM systems and radars, ATGM missile loads, IEDs, whatnot. Not a single scenario either. All graphics were reimaged. We kept the main music theme though, as that was a cool tune, and also to give kudos to DG.

ORIGINAL: tevans
Using my house analogy, if you tear the house completely down and rebuild it then it's a new house. If you use any part of the old house such as the foundation or studs then it becomes a remodeled house. In the case of the Campaign Series existing systems that Tiller designed are being used and built upon. The foundation that Tiller laid down is still being used. So anything done shouldn't be considered new or original.

Yes, this is based on John Tiller’s work on the Talonsoft and JTCS games. It is not a secret, it is a proud heritage, we still name this Campaign Series.

To make the point: We do not call this Battleground Series, we do not call this Panzer Campaigns, we do not call this Panzer Battles, we do not call this Squad Battles. Those are different game engines, available at JTS. The underlying game engine here is the Matrix Campaign Series game engine.

Not much remains of the original in code. Yet, the new games will play like Campaign Series games: That is what they are. Campaign Series games constructed with an ever evolving Matrix Campaign Series Engine (WW2, Modern).

ORIGINAL: tevans
Tiller and his design group have done the same exact thing with some of his other series of games by releasing 'Gold' versions. The 'Gold' versions just enhance older existing versions. They change code, graphics and data just like Jason claims is being done here. But they don't claim the 'Gold' versions are brand new games. They're upgrades. Anybody buying a new Tiller game automatically gets the upgraded version. Current owners can upgrade their older versions for free by providing proof of purchase for those older versions. Upgrades. Not new games. Everything Jason described to me that they're doing with this series amounts to the same thing and all of it can be done through modding. They're enhancing and upgrading an existing game system. Modders do the same thing with games every day.

That is not “the same exact thing” at all.

Panzer Campaign Gold updates are, well, updates. New graphics, updated scenarios, etc. Sure, not much different in what could have been done by an outside group, in case of those Gold updates as no new version of game engine shipped with them. But those new Gold versions are not mods by modders, they are new official versions to the games, released by JTS.

This is not difficult:

[*] CS Vietnam is to CS Middle East as what JTS PzC Budapest’45 is to JTS PzC Smolensk’41. A new game.
[*] JTS Budapest’45 Gold is to JTS Budapest’45 as what CS Middle East 2.0 is to CS Middle East 1.0. An update.
[*] Jison MapMod to PzC is what MausMan’s MapMod is to CS Middle East. A graphics mod.
[*] VolcanoMan’s scenario mods are to PzC as what Alan Arvold’s DG, AIW, OW mods are to CS Middle East. Scenario Mods.

ORIGINAL: tevans
That's it. I'm done. I've had my say. Nice conversation and good gaming. If I've offended you with anything I've said please accept my apologies.

You have not offended anyone as far as I know. Each to their own. This discussion is obviously not going anywhere anymore, so I just say thank you for the discussion, and good day to you.

[demyansk]

I like my modded Pinnarello and Litespeed. Plus, much better than the Alan on the trainer from the early 80's.

[salnickovvictory]

Summer 2019 to Vietnam

[Jason Petho]

Probably Fall 2019.

[Jason Petho]

By Fall, I mean in time for Christmas.

[Infierno]

Can't wait!

[Jason Petho]

Thank you, Infierno!

[LittleBen]

I started with those games...a long time ago, and I should say that even if nowaday graphics are better and the games are really better, I find that on those old it was easier to see the different level of the map…

I find that with the Middle East the engine is really better, and with that the event engine will open vast possibilities, but I'm really sad, because I really love the western font near the end of WW2, and don't want to wait till 2028...

[Jason Petho]

Alas, I know the frustration.

Unfortunately, as we don't get paid for development, we all need day jobs to pay the bills, which consequently eats into production time.

That will change as soon as I win the lotto though!

[LittleBen]

You don't get paid for such work ?? If it was a mod, or some scenarios, I will understand, but your team produces great enhancements of the game, and quit a new one with Middle East…

By the way, do you have an idea of the number of people who is playing one game of the campaign serie ?

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: LittleBen

You don't get paid for such work ??

No, never have for development.

ORIGINAL: LittleBen
If it was a mod, or some scenarios, I will understand, but your team produces great enhancements of the game, and quit a new one with Middle East…

Thank you, the sentiment is appreciated.

ORIGINAL: LittleBen
By the way, do you have an idea of the number of people who is playing one game of the campaign serie ?

No idea, unfortunately.

[Big Ivan]

Hi Jason,

Just took a quick look at 2 Wargaming Sites to get a rough idea how many have logged completed games in 2019.

At The Wargaming Club for Gentlemen (WGCG) There are 34 registered in the JTCS League. The Data Base there is
currently going through some restructuring so I couldn't get an actual game count.

Over at the Blitz Wargaming Club in the 2019 Campaign Series Ladder 51 Members have logged at least 1 game played.

So for a rough estimate figure 75-80 active players for all the Campaign Series Games in just those two popular
Wargaming sites. There is probably a lot more out there including those how don't belong to any clubs.

Regards,
John[:)]

[LittleBen]

I'm sure there must be much more players… Do you have an idea of how many CSME have been sold by Matrix ?

[Jason Petho]

Matrix doesn't publish their numbers, as far as I know.