Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Crossroads)

[budd]

this ought to be good.

[berto]

And quick? [:D]

[berto]

I wrote to my opponent about the disaster of losing six T-72s in two quick helo strikes, the prospect of losing a good deal more in that fashion, and the daunting challenge I face here. Crossroads wrote back with some tactical tips and suggestions. He should know, because he has played CS and similar games way more than I have, he is the better player (in the past, I played strictly solo vs. A/I), and besides, he designed this scenario!

I found merit in some of his suggestions, but was doubtful about others. In the end, I just decided to get on with it:

The die is cast. I have laid out my plans in my public DAR. I will discuss briefly your advice in the DAR. But I think I will stay in character.

I play these games for the "realism" and the immersion, not so much to win or lose (as nice as that may be). If I lose this one Big Time, so be it. That would be entirely in keeping with my Arab character. Why would we suppose that Col. Qaddafi & co. would be expert at all in modern armored warfare? Would have war gamed and figured this out already (as you seem to have done)? Why would we think that the Libyans would do any better than the Egyptians, Syrians etc. before them? What wars would the Libyans have fought, what School of Hard Knocks would they have attended? More likely, Qaddafi would have kinsmen or political hacks running his armed forces.

If I lose big, in all likelihood I will, c'est la guerre, that's gaming.

So let's get on with it!

[berto]

Belatedly, I discovered that my BMP-1s are not just thin-skinned APCs, but are decent tank killers too:



I have eight or so of them, two per mech infantry company.

Comforting to know.

[berto]

TURN #4

Charge, not exactly, maybe not yet; but move forward, yes, cautiously. In the center left, I get my main battle line ready.

At my center right, I commit a tank company to a flanking action east of "Cumbria". My Mi-24s (blue circle) will provide air cover.

I did follow one piece of Crossroads' advice: He is right in that the Mi-2s (magenta circle) are well suited for aerial recon. I need that badly in the center. Accordingly, they left behind the AT-3 Sagger platoon at "Bedfordshire" and instead are racing towards the center. (I decided it was better, for reasons of supply, to keep the Saggers together with their parent company.)

Around "Bedfordshire", I send my (understrength) T-72 company to seek and destroy any British armored cars in the vicinity. I have pulled back my own armored cars after the smack I got last phase.

I fully expect to lose more T-72s to those British helos next phase. Oh well, what can be done about it?

After my Side B (Libyan) move (Side B is the scenario's second side), the situation at the end of Turn 4:

[berto]

TURN #5

More disaster unfolds.

British Lynx (turquoise circle, screenshot below) swoop in from the north, fire at the Libyan tank company SE of "Cumbria" (magenta circle), and score 2 hits and a (forward) "retreat". Then flee rearward to safety.

Milan ATGMs at "Cumbria" (green circle) fire at T-72s at hex 33,18 (red circle), destroying all three of them.

Oddly, the British helos (Lynx? or?) at hex 46,17 (yellow circle) stop short their advance, don't fire. Afraid perhaps of my Mi-24 Hinds? Or perhaps they are recon helos without any real firepower?

[berto]

TURN #5

Another flight of Lynx darts forward (in the vicinity of the turquoise ellipse), fires at T-72s at hex 30,17 (magenta circle), obliterating two of them. The Lynx then retreat off map to the north.

Ground forces exchange fire back and forth to the west of "Cumbria" but without effect.

After Crossroads' Side A (British) move (Side A is the scenario's first side), the situation at the middle of Turn 5:



And once again, the enemy is essentially invisible to me.

If you suspect I haven't played with helos much before; if you think I have never played competitively helo vs. helo; on both counts you would be right.

In sending his Turn 5, Crossroads wrote:

Berto

"Still no sign of the enemy, or little of them (you).  That will soon change, I am sure."

The problem is I am seeing you, and on modern battlefield that is a decisive advantage. 

So far I've been able to use the reverse slopes to my advantage, as you don't see there, as you've kept your Helos at Nap of Earth for safety.

How LOS works, you don't see anyone upon your forward move, while my recce elements, with Op Fire turned OFF see you, and I can take action, come off reverse slopes to fire, then retreat just out of your LOS to repeat this. 

There are several asymmetries at work here:

[*]Crossroads has MANPAD missile units nearby; while my ZSU-23-4s are still far from the action (partly my fault); and my primary anti-helo assets, the radar-controlled SAMs, are far away to the south.
[*]He can fly his helos at NOE, thereby nullifying the SAMs (SAMs can only fire at Low/High air level targets), and send them forward with relative impunity. I can advance my helos only so far, for fear of the MANPADs.
[*]My helos can climb to Low and even High air level, without fear of drawing SAM fire (I think; I am not quite sure of the British force mix). But Visibility is restricted, currently at only 7 hexes. So in order to see anything, I draw nearer and nearer to his MANPADs.
[*]He has more helos, in particular way more (I think) recon helos (transports) than I do.

Of course, the biggest asymmetry is:

[*]I really don't know what the h3ll I am doing here, since I have never fought on modern battlefields before. (My CSME game play has never gone later than the 1973 Yom Kippur War. By far I have played the earlier conflicts ... Um, not exactly. I did do a couple of practice games of Sirte #1 & #2, but that was vs. the A/I. No helo A/I yet, remember?)

Oh well, it's a learning experience, right? Or more like a

[budd]

Not much of a modern war guy myself, i feel your pain i got spanked by Crossroads and Jason. I think this scenario is where Crossroads put the spanking on me, not sure though because the VP's look slightly different. I been using F3 religiously to try to hasten the learning curve. I still have a lot of AI bad habits. I'm pretty well hooked on this game,and i have to admit PBEM is the way to go. I'm converted, even if i suffer humilations galore. I try to go back to campaign series buts its really hard with the new features in CSME. You guys are going to have to hurry EF3 along[:D]

Good Luck...never give up the fight.

[berto]

Thanks for the encouragement, budd.

All things considered, I think I still prefer solo play. For one thing, there are CSME scenarios where the A/I puts up a good fight, even if it plays stupidly in parts. For another, I like to play unbroken for extended periods, all day Saturday or through the weekend even. I don't like the stop-and-go, episodic, now-and-then flow of PBEM, especially when Real Life takes one or the other player away from the action sometimes for many days and weeks. I have other reasons to dislike PBEM also.

In any event, since we know that most players prefer solo play, I must remain motivated to develop this game's A/I. Dumping solo play in favor of PBEM is not an option for me.

[budd]

I agree mostly, especially the part about unbroken play, I like to start and finish a scenario in the time I have available, probably the cause of my bad habits. I'm still going to be a mostly AI player because of the start and stop nature of PBEM, but PBEM does feel like it has a little more juice and I will probably have at least one going on all the time. I did try to work around the start and stop nature by having 4 PBEMs going at one time but that didn't work out so I'll mix in one or two PBEMs max with my solo play. I agree the AI puts on a good show, especially on defense and especially against someone of my meager skills[:D]. Looking forward to when you get the helo AI working.

[berto]

TURN #5

At the center left, I slowly but deliberately move forward. A British mech infantry unit fires at my approaching infantry, revealing its position.

Apart from that, there is no other firing this phase.

Using my rearward howitzers, I plot some indirect artillery fire for the first time this scenario.

From "Bedfordshire", I set my eastern battle group in motion.

Fearing another helo attack, I retire my center right tank company eastward (yellow circle, screenshot below). As a shield, I position my flight of Mi-24 Hind Gunships a bit forward (turquoise circle) in the hopes that the British Lynx will draw close enough that the Hinds can blast them.

Unlike the Hinds, which have decent anti-helo fire capability, the Mi-2 Hoplites are near toothless, and are thin-skinned to boot. Staying far away from suspected British MANPADs, I assign the Hoplites (green circle) to recon duty.

I still have no idea where the enemy has concentrated. Where are the British Chieftans? (I shudder to think that maybe a few of them are headed south to attack my SAM installations at the Ghardabiya Air Base.)

After my Side B (Libyan) move (Side B is the scenario's second side), the situation at the end of Turn 5 (with the Elevation map display toggled ON):

[berto]

In sending his Turn 6 moves, Crossroads had this to say:

Crossroads:

For this turn, I had the most cunning plan. I should have known.

Ooh, he has piqued my curiosity. Can I look forward to some good news for a change?

[berto]

TURN #6

About Crossroads' comment, "I should have known": No big deal. He sent one of his armored scout car units on a recon mission around my left flank. One of my Maljutka C Tank Destroyer platoons at hex 15,11 (turquoise circle, screenshot following) blasted the scout cars, destroying one of them (magenta circle).

Action heats up in the center, as British Chieftans advance, are opfired at by T-72s (green circle), then forced to retreat (white circle). No kills, just a retreat. That's a bad omen.

A flight of British Lynx fire at Libyan BMP-1s at hex 31,15 (red circle), destroying all three of them. Crossroads knows his OOB. He knows to go after the BMP-1s instead of the T-72s, because the BMP-1s have greater anti-tank firepower, while with their low Defense value are much easier to kill. After the attack, the Lynx withdraw from view once again.

More exchange of fire in the center, without significant outcome.

East of "Cumbria", Crossroads advances his helos. Maybe seeing my helos in ambush position, he stops short, does not attack the T-72s, pulls back instead. Prudence.

North of "Cumbria", maybe I have a chance to kill both of those British Milan ATGM platoons (yellow circles) this next phase. Here's hoping.

After Crossroads' Side A (British) move (Side A is the scenario's first side), the situation at the middle of Turn 6:

[Big Ivan]

berto,

You watch your fanny, those Chieftans are bad-ass perpetrators!

Be careful, be careful!![:)]

[berto]

Thanks, Ivan. I learned the hard way in one of my solo prep scenarios, Sirte #2. A company of my T-72s went up against a company of A/I controlled Chieftains. In just a single phase, final score: Chieftains 10, T-72s 0. The Chieftains wiped me out!

[berto]

TURN #6

T-72s at hex 31,15 (turquoise circle below) direct fire at Chieftains at hex 35,13 (yellow circle), just 4 hexes away. Realistically speaking, my T-72s will never get a closer, cleaner shot than this. Result: nothing, not a single hit, not even a disruption. Look again at these comparative stats, and you will understand why.

[berto]

TURN #6

Maybe I will try my luck with the BMP-1s. They do pack a bigger punch than the T-72s:



Nope! No better luck. BMP-1s at hex 31,15 (turquoise circle below) direct fire at Chieftains at hex 35,13 (yellow circle), again just 4 hexes away. Another swing, another miss:



I am totally stymied. [:(]

[berto]

This is reminiscent of 1991's Operation Desert Storm (six years after the Sirte #3 scenario's time frame), where the Allied Coalition fought the Iraqi Army, what was then the world's fourth largest army. Great numbers availed the Iraqis nothing. With their outdated equipment (among other reasons), they were no match at all for the vastly superior Allied forces.

I noted before that the T-72s have greater mobility vs. Chieftains. Maybe I could try to maneuver and hit the Chieftains on the side. The Chieftains' Front/Side/Rear armor ratings are 67/42/30. But again, nope. We are playing this scenario with the Armored Facing Effects optional rule toggled OFF.

Honestly, I would be lucky to kill more than a platoon of Chieftains, if that, this entire scenario. By the looks of things, I might be fortunate to kill even just one!

Hopeless much?

[berto]

TURN #6

Seeing the hopelessness of targeting the Chieftains, I try my luck vs. the Milan ATGMs.

A T-72 at hex 32,16 (green circle below) moves up slope and direct fires at the British ATGMs shrouded in smoke at hex 37,18 (white circle). The shot is wide of the mark. The T-72 retreats back to its original position out of LOS of the ATGMs.

Three T-72s advance to hex 31,15 (turquoise circle), direct fire at the Milan ATGMs across the way (yellow circle), and score a retreat:



In this scenario, for me, that's about as good as it gets. [8|]

[berto]

TURN #6

Three more T-72s (turquoise circle) attempt direct fire at the Chieftains (white circle). Same deal, no effect.

Another T-72 (green circle) moves up slope, direct fires into the smoke at hex 37,18 (white circle), and forces the ATGMs there to retreat.

Again, as good as it gets.



Note the BMP-1s that fired earlier (one hex to the NE of the turquoise circle). They expended so many APs firing at the T-72s that they have insufficient left over to retreat to safety. They are sitting ducks next phase for those T-72s (or if not, then the Lynx).

Let's tally up thus far. Six Libyan T-72s direct fire at the three British Chieftains, at fairly close range (four hexes), and every shot either misses or bounces harmlessly off. For the four Libyan BMP-1s, same difference. That's 10 shots from a mere 1 KM away, and no hits, no disruptions, no retreats, nothing.

Five other T-72s fire at vulnerable ATGM units, no kills, two forced retreats only.

It seems like the only thing I can kill in this scenario is the occasional British scout car. [8|]