Eastern Front: Finding the Right Ground Scale...

[Ichili]

Any chance, in the city of Stalingrad, to have units from both sides fighting within the same hex for the posession of that hex? That would reflect what happened historically: small units infiltrating enemy controlled areas. For instance, at some point a company of German pioneers got to the Volga shore behind Red Barricades before being repulsed by the Russians. There were also back and forth fights within the Assembly buildings that lasted days.

[bcgames]

Interesting idea. Very unlikely at this point. We're at ALPHA so we are not introducing any new code/capabilities to the Stalingrad engine. Any new ideas will be looked at for possible inclusion in Monty's Front 1944.

[bcgames]

Work in progress...Stalingrad@500m

[bcgames]

Here we go. A few more tweaks...add the location name labels and we're ready for some scenarios creating I think.

[bcgames]

...Stalingrad @ 500-meters per hex that is...

[bcgames]

Stalingrad @ 500m/hex does not immerse into the period; it's a generic, WWI-like slog. I prefer a WWII-like slog. How to get there? Why to go there? Dunno. Maybe stick to 2500m per hex. It works.

What say you?

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Stalingrad @ 500m/hex does not immerse into the period; it's a generic, WWI-like slog. I prefer a WWII-like slog. How to get there? Why to go there? Dunno. Maybe stick to 2500m per hex. It works.

What say you?

That is because it is a WW1 like slog, but it could be an opportunity for the small unique units to shine. Engineers, maybe commando on map units, infiltration capable units etc.

Rob.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader
That is because it is a WW1 like slog,...

WWI success is measured in meters. The city scale for the Stalingrad city fight needs to provide that same level of "feel of success". 500m per hex doesn't do that.

[StasSche]

This dilemma was discussed in regards of JTS games: when Panzer Battles appeared (company/squad level, 250m hex, 30 minutes per turn), many people suggested to make a Stalingrad title with emphasis on the battle inside the city. At the end, the JTS team after some testing decided that the only scale that works for such urban battles is Squad battles (section/team level, 40m hex, 5 minutes per turn).

Therefore, I believe that your decision to divide the battle in two titles is right... But just keep in mind that the makers of the Flashpoint Campaign mentioned that after the Southern Storm (game to be published in 2021) they are going to start working on WW2 title. So, you should consider if you want to compete with them on the same scale of WEGO (platoon/company, the hex side for WW2 title is unknown as most likely it will be reduced in comparison to FPC)

[kipanderson]

Bcgames, hi,
Tremendous to hear from the Matrix round robin video that Eastern Front is going to happen from BC games. Could not be better 😊.

When it comes to scale, I go with you and your alpha testers in thinking that for wargames “operations…” works best at the lower end of its true scale. The classic 1000m or 1500m per hex with battalions as the main manoeuvre units. That way you can play the smaller scenarios of following the fortunes of one plus division or even scale all the way up. Because it is PC based you can Save the game to finish over longer periods.

The critical thing is that all three, units, map scale and turn time are in sync.

I am now going to slightly highjack the thread just to point out the perennial problem with PC operational games of the Eastern Front. But each to their own of course 😉. This is just my very prejudiced view .

A disclaimer. I confess it is so long since I played Desert War, I forget whether training quality/skills on the one hand and morale on the other are one setting or modelled separately. If they are already separate settings, do not bother to read on and please accept my apologies.

To illustrate the problem, the great Panzer Campaigns series use one setting for both Experience/Training Quality and Motivation/Morale. When games are set on the western front there is no or rarely a problem. The two will often coexist. So, most of the time a unit modelled as having high experience and tactical qualities will also have high morale.
This was not the case on the Eastern Front. There many Soviet units, but not all, that had low skills but still incredibly high morale in terms of stubbornness and staying power. This problem can make modelling the Eastern Front using Panzer Campaigns a nightmare. i.e. cant really be done to the top quality. You get weird distortions when you try to fix it.
Hoping troop skills and morale will be able to be set separately.

Hugely looking forward to your game.
All the best,
Kip.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: StasSche
...

Therefore, I believe that your decision to divide the battle in two titles is right... ...

This was also the way the W@W series modelled Stalingrad, the game had two scales, one for Operation Uranus another for the city wide operations. It worked in principle and in detail.

[Saint Ruth]

To illustrate the problem, the great Panzer Campaigns series use one setting for both Experience/Training Quality and Motivation/Morale. When games are set on the western front there is no or rarely a problem. The two will often coexist. So, most of the time a unit modelled as having high experience and tactical qualities will also have high morale.
This was not the case on the Eastern Front. There many Soviet units, but not all, that had low skills but still incredibly high morale in terms of stubbornness and staying power. This problem can make modelling the Eastern Front using Panzer Campaigns a nightmare. i.e. cant really be done to the top quality. You get weird distortions when you try to fix it.
Hoping troop skills and morale will be able to be set separately.

Hi Kip, there's just Quality and Readiness and no separate Morale value.
I suppose that would be very complicated to model. Low Morale and high quality would be quite different to high morale, low quality. I'd presume high morale, low quality would be good on defense but would be slaughtered if they attacked.
It would really depend on the rules, and I don't want to make it all more complicated!
Cheers,
Brian

[Saint Ruth]

ORIGINAL: jmlima

This was also the way the W@W series modelled Stalingrad, the game had two scales, one for Operation Uranus another for the city wide operations. It worked in principle and in detail.

Yes, that's a great game!
Yes, in this game too, the Stalingrad battles will be 500 meters per hex and the others are 2500 meters per hex.
The game will also allow units to be combined / broken down so I regiment can either be one counter or 3 counters, so regiment can defend more ground if they're broken down, but that should also reduce the number of units on the map when not broken down.
Cheers,
Brian

[sol_invictus]

ORIGINAL: Saint Ruth

ORIGINAL: jmlima

This was also the way the W@W series modelled Stalingrad, the game had two scales, one for Operation Uranus another for the city wide operations. It worked in principle and in detail.

Yes, that's a great game!
Yes, in this game too, the Stalingrad battles will be 500 meters per hex and the others are 2500 meters per hex.
The game will also allow units to be combined / broken down so I regiment can either be one counter or 3 counters, so regiment can defend more ground if they're broken down, but that should also reduce the number of units on the map when not broken down.
Cheers,
Brian

I really like the sound of this!

[Hellway]

Wow...great, can not waiting...thanks [&o]