Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

1,358,520 more credits per year to put a deathray on every civilian ship... or a few thousands per pirate faction? I'd take the payoff.

Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute! Plus, there's an important thing you're missing: Melted pirates are good for your rep! There's an awful lot of pirates, and they blow up real pretty. What more reason do you need? Additionally, you don't actually PAY for said death rays: PRIVATE does. Since you can, at best, if you try REALLY hard, manage to extract half of that money from them, the other half may as well be used for death rays!

Or, you know, we could just put it back to the old system, in which I could have proper Indiamen capable of unleashing deadly broadsides if provoked, and the rest of the galaxy hated me for it. Let them hate, so long as they fear!

ORIGINAL: taltamir

with no pirates what remains? monsters (your fleet hunts those) and enemy empires (no biggie)

Monsters and enemy empires are a significant problem, though. Even with your spinelessness, there is no way to buy off Kaltors, and unlike pirates, they are not apparently subject to extirpation, they keep popping back up. But as long as I can properly arm things to deal with them, why not? I like a target-rich environment.

[taltamir]

Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute! Plus, there's an important thing you're missing: Melted pirates are good for your rep! There's an awful lot of pirates, and they blow up real pretty. What more reason do you need? Additionally, you don't actually PAY for said death rays: PRIVATE does. Since you can, at best, if you try REALLY hard, manage to extract half of that money from them, the other half may as well be used for death rays!

Or, you know, we could just put it back to the old system, in which I could have proper Indiamen capable of unleashing deadly broadsides if provoked, and the rest of the galaxy hated me for it. Let them hate, so long as they fear!

As I have done the math, the private sector will go bankrupt trying to pay for it. And I take a much more proactive approach.. I destroy EVERY pirate base within my territory... during war? I will prioritize pirate bases over the enemy empire's assets...
When I did the payoff thing? I would pay off the pirates AND hunt down and kill them as soon as I found their base.

Monsters and enemy empires are a significant problem, though. Even with your spinelessness, there is no way to buy off Kaltors, and unlike pirates, they are not apparently subject to extirpation, they keep popping back up. But as long as I can properly arm things to deal with them, why not? I like a target-rich environment.

If I see a keltor, I send my military fleets to kill it... MUCH cheaper than arming the merchants...

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

As I have done the math, the private sector will go bankrupt trying to pay for it.

I suspect your private sector is less profitable because you take a different administrative approach than I do. There's also the fact that maybe the private sector wouldn't have bought so many of them if they cost that much more.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

And I take a much more proactive approach.. I destroy EVERY pirate base within my territory... during war? I will prioritize pirate bases over the enemy empire's assets...

I'm not really familiar with during-a-war vs. not-during-a-war. When I play, there's always a war. Some jackhole declares war on me, and his jackhole friends soon follow. Pretty soon I can't keep who's who straight anymore, so I declare war on the rest of them so it doesn't hose my rep because I can't tell whether the red dots are the bad guys, or those slightly-other-red dots are not the bad guys. If it ain't mine, I KILL IT. DW does not do a good job making things seem distinct from each other, everything looks overly shootable and in-your-face.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

If I see a keltor, I send my military fleets to kill it... MUCH cheaper than arming the merchants...

Yeah, well, until they invent the jump drive ala STUN, that military fleet, even if they are fortunate enough to actually HAVE VelocityDrives, will show up about 6 months after the matter has become a moot point. Additionally, *I* have to take time off my BUSY SCHEDULE to deal with it. The merchants are there right NOW, and can deal with it WITHOUT MY BABYSITTING THEM. EAT LAZOR DEATH!

There's also the minor problem that I don't actually have more than about 3 warships, and all of them are things I found. And I am NOT pulling my CONSTRUCTORS off of their jobs just to hunt down some stinky Kaltor. To me, it seems such a waste to build actual warships, given that they will never actually be where they are NEEDED, when I can instead arm the things that always seem to run into trouble, and save the warships for when I plan to actually pursue the war rather than waiting for it to come to me.

[taltamir]

I suspect your private sector is less profitable because you take a different administrative approach than I do. There's also the fact that maybe the private sector wouldn't have bought so many of them if they cost that much more.

Way of ancients, no pirates, I conquered every other empire and colonized every planet.

I'm not really familiar with during-a-war vs. not-during-a-war. When I play, there's always a war. Some jackhole declares war on me, and his jackhole friends soon follow. Pretty soon I can't keep who's who straight anymore, so I declare war on the rest of them so it doesn't hose my rep because I can't tell whether the red dots are the bad guys, or those slightly-other-red dots are not the bad guys. If it ain't mine, I KILL IT. DW does not do a good job making things seem distinct from each other, everything looks overly shootable and in-your-face.

Are we talking 1.0.4.4? the AI is much less likely to declare war on a greater power... and all you have to do is blow up a few star bases and they agree to subjugation. (Which means that they are highly unlike to declare war on you)...

if two empires have a similar colony, I make them top priority for annihilation

Yeah, well, until they invent the jump drive ala STUN, that military fleet, even if they are fortunate enough to actually HAVE VelocityDrives, will show up about 6 months after the matter has become a moot point. Additionally, *I* have to take time off my BUSY SCHEDULE to deal with it. The merchants are there right NOW, and can deal with it WITHOUT MY BABYSITTING THEM. EAT LAZOR DEATH!

There's also the minor problem that I don't actually have more than about 3 warships, and all of them are things I found. And I am NOT pulling my CONSTRUCTORS off of their jobs just to hunt down some stinky Kaltor. To me, it seems such a waste to build actual warships, given that they will never actually be where they are NEEDED, when I can instead arm the things that always seem to run into trouble, and save the warships for when I plan to actually pursue the war rather than waiting for it to come to me.

Turn ship build and attacks against enemies to full auto, disable notifications about being under attack... a few merchant ships die alone and unloved... who cares. And for the rest my AI does a decent enough job of protecting them and eliminating threats... heck, I have even seen it invade planets successfully... granted it is SLOOOOOW about it.

[Gertjan]

Wow. Good to hear that weapons will be patched. Does this also mean that the ship design automation will be improved? I find Taltamir's analysis interesting, but I would rather not be bothered with micro issues such as ship design. Hence why I would like automation to be improved as well.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Gertjan

Wow. Good to hear that weapons will be patched. Does this also mean that the ship design automation will be improved? I find Taltamir's analysis interesting, but I would rather not be bothered with micro issues such as ship design. Hence why I would like automation to be improved as well.

You and me both... if the automation does a good enough job I would just leave it to it and never bother with it again

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Turn ship build and attacks against enemies to full auto, disable notifications about being under attack... a few merchant ships die alone and unloved... who cares.

So, what, you mean, turn the rest of the game I haven't already set to auto to auto as well? Wouldn't that mean I am NO LONGER PLAYING?

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Turn ship build and attacks against enemies to full auto, disable notifications about being under attack... a few merchant ships die alone and unloved... who cares.

So, what, you mean, turn the rest of the game I haven't already set to auto to auto as well? Wouldn't that mean I am NO LONGER PLAYING?

sure you are playing... I have, literally, thousands of freighters... I let the AI patrol the routes and protect them with ships it builds... I build ships for several fleets which I then assign, I assign each of them a ctrl+number, and I use those to do specific things... hunt for pirates, hunt monsters, protect important things, attack enemies, etc...

The rest of the empire works...

How is letting the AI build some fleets and use those to protect your freighters "not playing the game", but designing the freighters to have enough weapons and shields to take out whomever attacks them (and the AI auto builds and auto controls said freighters) IS playing the game?
I see no difference between the two.. in the end the AI is helping me manage the empire, it does its thing, builds, protects, patrols... I still play and I directly control fleets and direct them as I see fit.

in 4.0.4.4 the AI is actually pretty good about maintaining a selection of ships, as well as auto upgrading them / retiring them to keep them the last version... it even upgrades star bases automatically. And freighters etc do as well... there was a bug in the civilian mining base retrofit function that caused most to be retired instead which i have reported and I was told by elliot was fixed in 1.0.4 final.
tm.asp?m=2454634

[Wicky]

Well, don't get your feet off too much of the ground. If the super-weapon death ray kills the enemy in one shot, then all your calculations about DPS, damage efficiency per energy (and thus space) become totally useless!

For example the world destroyer has a damage potential of 8000 in one shot, however it can fire only every 30 seconds, that means 266 DPS.
Now your super-designed battleship with 500 DPS comes in and it is killed in one shot?

[Munchies]

Well if you automate everything then you are playing a hands-off game and therefore you are not playing it. Just watching.
But yeah, I see Tals point too.

As far as the weapons go, you have other factors besides just raw DPS, EPS, and so on to consider. I have had the AI shoot down my torpedoes before for example. Can't shoot down a laser.

It is just diff to balance these things when you don't have all the info.

[Bloodly]

So, what, you mean, turn the rest of the game I haven't already set to auto to auto as well? Wouldn't that mean I am NO LONGER PLAYING?

Is a 'watch game' necessarily a bad thing, though? I have fond memories of Rise of Nations and Rise of Legends, where a similar setup was possible-CPU against itself, but you could still act and build and change things. In many ways the CPU was far faster in some respects, but your input could make things better in regards to efficiency buildings, researching, placing of defences, and so on. It was more interesting than actually playing the game.[:'(]

A 'watch game' isn't something to be avoided, and hell, half the sale point is you can go as far as that and still work effectively whilst you try and do other things.

There's an issue of trust and effectiveness. We don't trust the A.I to manage itself-mostly because it's proven to have issues with just about everything outside the norm.

[Fishman]

It is more interesting to watch when I had some input in the process I am watching, as opposed to it being non-interventionist. For instance, watching the awesome bot you just made tearing other players apart.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Wicky

Well, don't get your feet off too much of the ground. If the super-weapon death ray kills the enemy in one shot, then all your calculations about DPS, damage efficiency per energy (and thus space) become totally useless!

For example the world destroyer has a damage potential of 8000 in one shot, however it can fire only every 30 seconds, that means 266 DPS.
Now your super-designed battleship with 500 DPS comes in and it is killed in one shot?

I compared death ray and devastator pulse, neither of them can one shot anything of worth.
And both are buildable...

the world annihilator you can NOT build in your own ship designs... and it actually has the capacity to one shot a FEW things with its mega lasers... still, even AI designed capital ships and star bases have enough shields to take a direct blast from the world annihilator megalaser.

ORIGINAL: Fishman

It is more interesting to watch when I had some input in the process I am watching, as opposed to it being non-interventionist. For instance, watching the awesome bot you just made tearing other players apart.

then design your own escorts... I did. they are cute little things and are actually effective.

[Sigh]

ORIGINAL: lostsm

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5. [8D]

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore

What an extremely terrible post. This is why modding DESTROYS games from the get go. Great attitude. Make the players develop the game [8|]

[Fishman]

Modding doesn't destroy games. There is one game I am involved in ONLY to mod, and if there was no modding, I would not play it, because it is that bad out of the box.

[HsojVvad]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Modding doesn't destroy games. There is one game I am involved in ONLY to mod, and if there was no modding, I would not play it, because it is that bad out of the box.

Would that game be MOO III by any chance?

[Fishman]

No. It is very unlikely that the game has any relevance to anyone here.

[lostsm]

ORIGINAL: Sigh

ORIGINAL: lostsm

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5. [8D]

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore

What an extremely terrible post. This is why modding DESTROYS games from the get go. Great attitude. Make the players develop the game [8|]

well this game isn't destroyed from the get go. it's already very fun and addictive. so it wouldn't be players developing anything, it would be the community enhancing the game and this is always a good thing

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Modding doesn't destroy games. There is one game I am involved in ONLY to mod, and if there was no modding, I would not play it, because it is that bad out of the box.

reliance on player developed content is not nodding, its some weird theoretical BS that produces sub par results...
Modding is when you create professional grade content and an excellent game, but also ALLOW people to leverage your engine to creature their own custom stuff.

A good example of a mod would be counterstrike.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike#Development

Anyways, its impossible for this game to have a case of reliance on user developed content, because it is already a full blown game, fully developed by professionals. Those experimental games that rely on user content come more as a blank canvas by design, from the beginning

[Fishman]

I'll take reliance on user-developed content over a game that is broken and unfixable, though. It's good if it works out of the box, but increasingly, this is becoming something you cannot count on, and I'll take "can be made to work" vs. "broken forever".