NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
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FingNewGuy
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- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
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RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
Previously referenced here fb.asp?m=3636275 and here fb.asp?m=3636590. [8D]
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
A physicist friend of mine did some number crunching on this subject. The basic problem is that exiting warp would obliterate anything near you upon arrival.... heh
source: http://sydney.edu.au/news/science/397.h ... oryid=8790
'Brendan McMonigal said, "Interestingly, the energy burst released upon arriving at the destination does not have an upper limit. You can just keep on traveling for longer and longer distances and the energy that will be released will continue to increase - one of the odd effects of General Relativity.
"Even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you," said Brendan.'
source: http://sydney.edu.au/news/science/397.h ... oryid=8790
'Brendan McMonigal said, "Interestingly, the energy burst released upon arriving at the destination does not have an upper limit. You can just keep on traveling for longer and longer distances and the energy that will be released will continue to increase - one of the odd effects of General Relativity.
"Even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you," said Brendan.'
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FingNewGuy
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
- Location: Boulder, CO
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
Would the energy be released in a cone forward of travel vector upon exit, I wonder? I mean, it is space and you could always calculate your jump exit away from destination? It is a question, I don't presume to understand the math behind this. 
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking whether it would be enough to arrive 'off target' or facing away from the destination, to avoid destroying it?
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FingNewGuy
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- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
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RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking whether it would be enough to arrive 'off target' or facing away from the destination, to avoid destroying it?
Exactly right, that is what I am asking.
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/techn ... at_prt.htm
Nasa says it ain't happening on my google search.
Nasa says it ain't happening on my google search.
Windows 7 64 bit, i7 930, GTX670, 12 gig DDR 1300
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FingNewGuy
- Posts: 183
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RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
"Alcubierre’s "Warp Drive"
Here’s the premise behind the Alcubierre "warp drive": Although Special Relativity forbids objects to move faster than light within spacetime, it is unknown how fast spacetime itself can move. To use an analogy, imagine you are on one of those moving sidewalks that can be found in some airports. The Alcubierre warp drive is like one of those moving sidewalks. Although there may be a limit to how fast one can walk across the floor (analogous to the light speed limit), what about if you are on a moving section of floor that moves faster than you can walk (analogous to a moving section of spacetime)? In the case of the Alcubierre warp drive, this moving section of spacetime is created by expanding spacetime behind the ship (analogous to where the sidewalk emerges from underneath the floor), and by contracting spacetime in front of the ship (analogous to where the sidewalk goes back into the floor). The idea of expanding spacetime is not new. Using the "Inflationary Universe" perspective, for example, it is thought that spacetime expanded faster than the speed of light during the early moments of the Big Bang. So if spacetime can expand faster than the speed of light during the Big Bang, why not for our warp drive? These theories are too new to have either been discounted or proven viable.
Any other sticky issues?
Yes... First, to create this effect, you’ll need a ring of negative energy wrapped around the ship, and lots of it too. It is still debated in physics whether negative energy can exist. Classical physics tends toward a "no," while quantum physics leans to a "maybe, yes." Second, you’ll need a way to control this effect to turn it on and off at will. This will be especially tricky since this warp effect is a separate effect from the ship. Third, all this assumes that this whole "warp" would indeed move faster than the speed of light. This is a big unknown. And fourth, if all the previous issues weren’t tough enough, these concepts evoke the same time-travel paradoxes as the wormhole concepts.
[Our gratitude to Michael Pfenning for pointing out an error in our older explanation of the Alcubierre warp drive.]
Negative mass propulsion
It has been shown that is theoretically possible to create a continuously propulsive effect by the juxtaposition of negative and positive mass and that such a scheme does not violate conservation of momentum or energy. A crucial assumption to the success of this concept is that negative mass has negative inertia. Their combined interactions result in a sustained acceleration of both masses in the same direction. This concept dates back to at least 1957 with an analysis of the properties of hypothetical negative mass by Bondi, and has been revisited in the context of propulsion by Winterberg and Forward in the 1980’s.
Regarding the physics of negative mass, it is not known whether negative mass exists or if it is even theoretically allowed, but methods have been suggested to search for evidence of negative mass in the context of searching for astronomical evidence of wormholes.
Millis’s hypothetical "Space Drives"
A "space drive" can be defined as an idealized form of propulsion where the fundamental properties of matter and spacetime are used to create propulsive forces anywhere in space without having to carry and expel a reaction mass. Such an achievement would revolutionize space travel as it would circumvent the need for propellant. A variety of hypothetical space drives were created and analyzed by Millis to identify the specific problems that have to be solved to make such schemes plausible. These hypothetical drives are just briefly introduced here. Please note that these concepts are purely hypothetical constructs aimed to illustrate the remaining challenges. Before any of these space drives can become reality, a method must be discovered where a vehicle can create and control an external asymmetric force on itself without expelling a reaction mass and the method must satisfy conservation laws in the process.
[Note: This section is excerpted from Millis' "Challenge to Create the Space Drive," in the AIAA Journal of Propulsion and Power, Vol.13, No.5, pp. 577-582, Sept.-Oct. 1997. This 6 page report uses 7 hypothetical space drive concepts to highlight the unsolved physics and candidate next steps toward creating a propellantless space drive. It also contains figures for each concept which are not currently available electronically.]
Hypothetical Differential Sail: Analogous to the principles of an ideal radiometer vane, a net difference in radiation pressure exists across the reflecting and absorbing sides. It is assumed that space contains a background of some form of isotropic medium (like the vacuum fluctuations or Cosmic Background Radiation) that is constantly impinging on all sides of the sail.
Hypothetical Diode Sail: Analogous to a diode or one-way mirror, space radiation passes through one direction and reflects from the other creating a net difference in radiation pressure.
Hypothetical Induction Sail: Analogous to creating a pressure gradient in a fluid, the energy density of the impinging space radiation is raised behind the sail and lowered in front to create a net difference in radiation pressure across the sail.
Hypothetical Diametric Drive: This concept considers the possibility of creating a local gradient in a background scalar property of space (such as gravitational potential) by the juxtaposition of diametrically opposed field sources across the vehicle. This is directly analogous to negative mass propulsion. The diametric drive can also be considered analogous to creating a pressure source/sink in a space medium as suggested with the Induction Sail.
Hypothetical Pitch Drive: This concept entertains the possibility that somehow a localized slope in scalar potential is induced across the vehicle which causes forces on the vehicle. In contrast to the diametric drive presented earlier, it is assumed that such a slope can be created without the presence of a pair of point sources. It is not yet known if and how such an effect can be created.
Hypothetical Bias Drive: This concept entertains the possibility that the vehicle alters the properties of space itself, such as the gravitational constant, G, to create a local propulsive gradient. By modifying Newton’s constant to have a localized asymmetric bias, a local gradient similar to the Pitch Drive mechanism results.
Hypothetical Disjunction Drive: This concept entertains the possibility that the source of a field and that which reacts to a field can be separated. By displacing them in space, the reactant is shifted to a point where the field has a slope, thus producing reaction forces between the source and the reactant. Although existing evidence strongly suggests that the source, reactant, and inertial mass properties are inseparable, any future evidence to the contrary would have revolutionary implication to this propulsion application."
-Source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ideachev.html
Here’s the premise behind the Alcubierre "warp drive": Although Special Relativity forbids objects to move faster than light within spacetime, it is unknown how fast spacetime itself can move. To use an analogy, imagine you are on one of those moving sidewalks that can be found in some airports. The Alcubierre warp drive is like one of those moving sidewalks. Although there may be a limit to how fast one can walk across the floor (analogous to the light speed limit), what about if you are on a moving section of floor that moves faster than you can walk (analogous to a moving section of spacetime)? In the case of the Alcubierre warp drive, this moving section of spacetime is created by expanding spacetime behind the ship (analogous to where the sidewalk emerges from underneath the floor), and by contracting spacetime in front of the ship (analogous to where the sidewalk goes back into the floor). The idea of expanding spacetime is not new. Using the "Inflationary Universe" perspective, for example, it is thought that spacetime expanded faster than the speed of light during the early moments of the Big Bang. So if spacetime can expand faster than the speed of light during the Big Bang, why not for our warp drive? These theories are too new to have either been discounted or proven viable.
Any other sticky issues?
Yes... First, to create this effect, you’ll need a ring of negative energy wrapped around the ship, and lots of it too. It is still debated in physics whether negative energy can exist. Classical physics tends toward a "no," while quantum physics leans to a "maybe, yes." Second, you’ll need a way to control this effect to turn it on and off at will. This will be especially tricky since this warp effect is a separate effect from the ship. Third, all this assumes that this whole "warp" would indeed move faster than the speed of light. This is a big unknown. And fourth, if all the previous issues weren’t tough enough, these concepts evoke the same time-travel paradoxes as the wormhole concepts.
[Our gratitude to Michael Pfenning for pointing out an error in our older explanation of the Alcubierre warp drive.]
Negative mass propulsion
It has been shown that is theoretically possible to create a continuously propulsive effect by the juxtaposition of negative and positive mass and that such a scheme does not violate conservation of momentum or energy. A crucial assumption to the success of this concept is that negative mass has negative inertia. Their combined interactions result in a sustained acceleration of both masses in the same direction. This concept dates back to at least 1957 with an analysis of the properties of hypothetical negative mass by Bondi, and has been revisited in the context of propulsion by Winterberg and Forward in the 1980’s.
Regarding the physics of negative mass, it is not known whether negative mass exists or if it is even theoretically allowed, but methods have been suggested to search for evidence of negative mass in the context of searching for astronomical evidence of wormholes.
Millis’s hypothetical "Space Drives"
A "space drive" can be defined as an idealized form of propulsion where the fundamental properties of matter and spacetime are used to create propulsive forces anywhere in space without having to carry and expel a reaction mass. Such an achievement would revolutionize space travel as it would circumvent the need for propellant. A variety of hypothetical space drives were created and analyzed by Millis to identify the specific problems that have to be solved to make such schemes plausible. These hypothetical drives are just briefly introduced here. Please note that these concepts are purely hypothetical constructs aimed to illustrate the remaining challenges. Before any of these space drives can become reality, a method must be discovered where a vehicle can create and control an external asymmetric force on itself without expelling a reaction mass and the method must satisfy conservation laws in the process.
[Note: This section is excerpted from Millis' "Challenge to Create the Space Drive," in the AIAA Journal of Propulsion and Power, Vol.13, No.5, pp. 577-582, Sept.-Oct. 1997. This 6 page report uses 7 hypothetical space drive concepts to highlight the unsolved physics and candidate next steps toward creating a propellantless space drive. It also contains figures for each concept which are not currently available electronically.]
Hypothetical Differential Sail: Analogous to the principles of an ideal radiometer vane, a net difference in radiation pressure exists across the reflecting and absorbing sides. It is assumed that space contains a background of some form of isotropic medium (like the vacuum fluctuations or Cosmic Background Radiation) that is constantly impinging on all sides of the sail.
Hypothetical Diode Sail: Analogous to a diode or one-way mirror, space radiation passes through one direction and reflects from the other creating a net difference in radiation pressure.
Hypothetical Induction Sail: Analogous to creating a pressure gradient in a fluid, the energy density of the impinging space radiation is raised behind the sail and lowered in front to create a net difference in radiation pressure across the sail.
Hypothetical Diametric Drive: This concept considers the possibility of creating a local gradient in a background scalar property of space (such as gravitational potential) by the juxtaposition of diametrically opposed field sources across the vehicle. This is directly analogous to negative mass propulsion. The diametric drive can also be considered analogous to creating a pressure source/sink in a space medium as suggested with the Induction Sail.
Hypothetical Pitch Drive: This concept entertains the possibility that somehow a localized slope in scalar potential is induced across the vehicle which causes forces on the vehicle. In contrast to the diametric drive presented earlier, it is assumed that such a slope can be created without the presence of a pair of point sources. It is not yet known if and how such an effect can be created.
Hypothetical Bias Drive: This concept entertains the possibility that the vehicle alters the properties of space itself, such as the gravitational constant, G, to create a local propulsive gradient. By modifying Newton’s constant to have a localized asymmetric bias, a local gradient similar to the Pitch Drive mechanism results.
Hypothetical Disjunction Drive: This concept entertains the possibility that the source of a field and that which reacts to a field can be separated. By displacing them in space, the reactant is shifted to a point where the field has a slope, thus producing reaction forces between the source and the reactant. Although existing evidence strongly suggests that the source, reactant, and inertial mass properties are inseparable, any future evidence to the contrary would have revolutionary implication to this propulsion application."
-Source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ideachev.html
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
I guess it depends on how far away you stop. Of course you can't be sure that there isn't something else at your end point. Wouldn't want to casually obliterate some distant space station because you decided not to stop right at the planet [:'(]
I'll ask Brendan how big this concentrated beam is expected to be...
I'll ask Brendan how big this concentrated beam is expected to be...
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
ORIGINAL: Tcby
A physicist friend of mine did some number crunching on this subject. The basic problem is that exiting warp would obliterate anything near you upon arrival.... heh
source: http://sydney.edu.au/news/science/397.h ... oryid=8790
'Brendan McMonigal said, "Interestingly, the energy burst released upon arriving at the destination does not have an upper limit. You can just keep on traveling for longer and longer distances and the energy that will be released will continue to increase - one of the odd effects of General Relativity.
"Even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you," said Brendan.'
not just in front of you the ships using this method would be torn apart, with out some sort of shield or inertia dampeners not to mention the effects it would have on the environment of space that amount of energy could send a 1 gram meteor so fast it would impact with more force than all the nukes in the world. this could destroy a lot of stuff really quick IMO it will be weaponized before it is used for FTL travel.
who know's what we don't know yet.
look at SOTS game human model ships they look very similar to this design oddly enough
i would love to be teleported safely it would be very weird not to mention the ramification of would it really be me there or a clone with my memory's and such?
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
-Mark Twain
-Mark Twain
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
ORIGINAL: pycco
ORIGINAL: Tcby
A physicist friend of mine did some number crunching on this subject. The basic problem is that exiting warp would obliterate anything near you upon arrival.... heh
source: http://sydney.edu.au/news/science/397.h ... oryid=8790
'Brendan McMonigal said, "Interestingly, the energy burst released upon arriving at the destination does not have an upper limit. You can just keep on traveling for longer and longer distances and the energy that will be released will continue to increase - one of the odd effects of General Relativity.
"Even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you," said Brendan.'
not just in front of you the ships using this method would be torn apart, with out some sort of shield or inertia dampeners not to mention the effects it would have on the environment of space that amount of energy could send a 1 gram meteor so fast it would impact with more force than all the nukes in the world. this could destroy a lot of stuff really quick IMO it will be weaponized before it is used for FTL travel.
who know's what we don't know yet.
look at SOTS game human model ships they look very similar to this design oddly enough
Yeah, in the paper they talk about particles also damaging the ship even whilst it's in transit.
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FingNewGuy
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
- Location: Boulder, CO
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
ORIGINAL: Tcby
I guess it depends on how far away you stop. Of course you can't be sure that there isn't something else at your end point. Wouldn't want to casually obliterate some distant space station because you decided not to stop right at the planet [:'(]
I'll ask Brendan how big this concentrated beam is expected to be...
Quite right. Thanks, I am really interested inwhat his reply to that particular question will be. [8D]
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
ORIGINAL: Tcby
ORIGINAL: pycco
ORIGINAL: Tcby
A physicist friend of mine did some number crunching on this subject. The basic problem is that exiting warp would obliterate anything near you upon arrival.... heh
source: http://sydney.edu.au/news/science/397.h ... oryid=8790
'Brendan McMonigal said, "Interestingly, the energy burst released upon arriving at the destination does not have an upper limit. You can just keep on traveling for longer and longer distances and the energy that will be released will continue to increase - one of the odd effects of General Relativity.
"Even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you," said Brendan.'
not just in front of you the ships using this method would be torn apart, with out some sort of shield or inertia dampeners not to mention the effects it would have on the environment of space that amount of energy could send a 1 gram meteor so fast it would impact with more force than all the nukes in the world. this could destroy a lot of stuff really quick IMO it will be weaponized before it is used for FTL travel.
who know's what we don't know yet.
look at SOTS game human model ships they look very similar to this design oddly enough
Yeah, in the paper they talk about particles also damaging the ship even whilst it's in transit.
LOL, did not read it just understand physics glad they know this though [:)]
there are other technology's that must be developed before FTL can be used without cataclysmic results.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
-Mark Twain
-Mark Twain
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FingNewGuy
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
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RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
Yeah, in the paper they talk about particles also damaging the ship even whilst it's in transit.
I wonder if, honestly, interstellar particles aren't the bane of linear-propulsion travel?
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
ORIGINAL: FingNewGuy
Yeah, in the paper they talk about particles also damaging the ship even whilst it's in transit.
I wonder if, honestly, interstellar particles aren't the bane of linear-propulsion travel?
i read a paper about how we would have to create a "bubble" around the ships or object to prevent microscopic objects from destroying the said object. essentially making the object not extincts in are time and space. [X(]
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
-Mark Twain
-Mark Twain
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FingNewGuy
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
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RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
I used to be all about manned space travel, BUT... the more we actually know about the hazards that exist and our current state of knowledge as far as countering those threats ( particles, radiation, prolonged weightlessness effects for example), I don't see how it can happen. Given our current state of knowledge. [:(]
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
its not that far out even just need to look at how the planet does gravity and shields us from the rad's and meteors every thing is already know how to apply it it what is needed. AKA a spinning ball of super heated metal with electrostatic electricity will create a "shell" around the object in question it comes down to power output vs size and efficiency [;)]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
-Mark Twain
-Mark Twain
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FingNewGuy
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:31 pm
- Location: Boulder, CO
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
ORIGINAL: pycco
its not that far out even just need to look at how the planet does gravity and shields us from the rad's and meteors every thing is already know how to apply it it what is needed. AKA a spinning ball of super heated metal with electrostatic electricity will create a "shell" around the object in question it comes down to power output vs size and efficiency [;)]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power
Do you really think so? Even at relativistic velocities? The energy requirements for such that you are talking about become absolutely enormous, in addition to the propulsion, naturally.
RE: NASA's concept spaceship for interstellar travel WOW
once your going that fast the bubble behind the ship will push it you only have to start the "reaction" no need to powered the sustained momentum its the stopping and controlling the bubble so that it does not envelopment the ships and lose shape that is hard.
as for the super heated metal it would be the actual reactor that would generate the magnetic fields.
and fusion once started will sustain it self with the power its putting out and still have enough power to power most if not all of other systems. the sub light engines are tricky though as there is no air in space so fuel that we use would not work, so its more of a giant hammer than an engine to give the ship sub light speed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive
http://home.earthlink.net/~jedcline/skests.html- basic for sub light efficient travel
as for the super heated metal it would be the actual reactor that would generate the magnetic fields.
and fusion once started will sustain it self with the power its putting out and still have enough power to power most if not all of other systems. the sub light engines are tricky though as there is no air in space so fuel that we use would not work, so its more of a giant hammer than an engine to give the ship sub light speed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive
http://home.earthlink.net/~jedcline/skests.html- basic for sub light efficient travel
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
-Mark Twain
-Mark Twain