Faith in the game.

[Stimpak]

Southern Storm can't come soon enough.

[CapnDarwin]

Bootlegger we feel your pain. Others have it too and it is one area we are doing a number of changes to make things more realistic in local response time and give you as the commander a bit more freedom to determine certain SOP factors for your forces. Of course this is a double edged sword as the AI will be getting the same toys. [8D]

[bootlegger267]

I understand the trade off............ but ya gotta give me the benefit of the doubt. 2-3 rounds, and we were out. No orders, no need for comms.... Gone! When the hoard showed up,(thankfully they never did) we we not stupid. We had "Tripwires". If the enemy reached "X", we moved.... No comms needed. The NATO reaction times are too slow..............We trained this shit....period











We had tr

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: battlerbritain

Thanks Jeff, I feel happier knowing that a boatload of relevant experience is in the team [:)]

On Soviet tank gun accuracy they don't use an MRS (muzzle reference system) on their guns.
An MRS really helps with long range accuracy but also for maintaining accuracy after 10+ rounds have been fired.

But they choose not to fit an MRS as
a) it adds complexity, costs and you have to train your gunners to use them.
b) the Sovs don't think that the terrain in Germany would offer many engagement ranges over 800m let alone 2000m
c) the autoloader only holds 12 rounds of Fin anyway.

Great thread by the way [:)]

b) is probably very accurate. The US Army did a study after WW2 to determine the average engagement range between tanks. It was 400 meters for those involving US tanks. If you compare the terrain in Europe in the 1940s to that of the 1989 time period you would see more urban sprawl. Not less.

The one thing that would extend the ranges would be Thermal Imaging and that would make things really questionable about when you could or could not be seen.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Lowlaner2012]

Hi bootlegger....

Don't forget you can use waypoint timing to mimic timed and pre organised withdrawal positions....

Here is a quote from Capn Darwin from another thread..

"One work around some players have used is setting a deliberate move with retreating waypoints. Then setting delays of a good number of minutes to keep the unit in hex. Then, during an orders phase, reducing the delay to allow the unit to displace quickly to the new location. Rinse and repeat as needed."

So there is a work around until Southern storm.

[Lowlaner2012]

One question, OTS guys...

Seeing as the hexes are 500m and things are abstracted within the hex, are things like different firing positions, smoke dispensers etc modeled within the abstracted hex?

I think its sometimes easy to forget that the hexes are 500m and that within that hex there is a lot of abstraction...

IMHO and others I have been playing pbem games with believe the game with 20.11 feels as close to realistic as a wargame about a hypothetical conflict can get....



Thanks

EDIT

Also if a unit is holding in a hex with good blocking cover behind it and is in danger of being overun, I sometimes set it to screen during my order phase, then it should and usually does break contact with the enemy a lot faster than a hasty move order would, it works even better if you lay some smoke between it and the enemy, then after its out of contact with the enemy you can use a hasty move order to get it to safety or its next position... this and the waypoint delay method I think provide decent workarounds until Southern Storm is out...

[CapnDarwin]

A list of modeled combat effects off the top of my head are the following:
1. Use of smoke discharges if equipped and unit is lased and has a detector or versus a spotted ATGM launch.
2. Cover of local terrain.
3. Current order leads to exposer of subunits.
4. Weather and time of day effects.
5. Soft factor impacts (training, readiness, morale).
6. Active and passive defensive measures if equipped.
7. Intervening terrain clutter, smoke, and wrecks.
8. NBC effects if applicable.
9. Armor facing in certain situations such as tanks versus infantry in cities.
10. Fire control, stability and weapon accuracy factors.

I'm sure I'll think of more. [:D]

[Lowlaner2012]

Thanks for the info Capn

[mmaruda]

One thing that I find interesting is how a given unit's combat ability decreases proportionally to their ammo percentage. For example, say we have a platoon of tanks dug in on forested hill waiting in ambush. Initially they will wreck havoc among enemy tanks, but when their ammo level drops to around 60% they tend to shoot, but kill a lot less. Now, one would think that 60% ammo is still a lot, but considering a typical tank has around 40 SABOT rounds and 40 HEAT/HESH rounds, I would assume at this stage, they are low or completely out of SABOT and that means they are shooting at tanks with HEAT/HESH which are harder to put on target and have less penetration. Is that the case here? Because that would be some Steel Beasts level simulation right there.

[CapnDarwin]

Mmaruda, we are not tracking every shell in every tank, but we do take into account the drop off in RoF as ammo and readiness drop during an engagement. The AI is also making on the fly determination as to using AP or HEAT rounds versus the target. Same for tube launched ATGMs.

[battlerbritain]

ORIGINAL: mmaruda

... considering a typical tank has around 40 SABOT rounds and 40 HEAT/HESH rounds, ....

Actually it's a lot less than that.

Total Rounds carried for various tanks that I have data for are in the order of:
Israeli Centurion: 72rds
Chieftain: 64rds 50/50 AP/HESH
Challenger 1: 52rds 50/50 AP/HESH
M-60A3: 63rds 50/50 AP/HE
M1A1: 40 rds 50/50 AP/HE
M1: 55rds 50/50 AP/HE
Leo1: 60rds 50/50 AP/HE
Leo2: 42rds 50/50 AP/HE
T-55: 43rds 23AP, 3 HEAT, 17HE
T-62: 40rds 14AP, 7 HEAT, 19HE
T-64/72/80: 40rds, 12AP, 6 HEAT, 22HE

As you can see I think most tanks will be out of AP pretty quickly.

Hope this helps, B

[bootlegger267]

ORIGINAL: battlerbritain

ORIGINAL: mmaruda

... considering a typical tank has around 40 SABOT rounds and 40 HEAT/HESH rounds, ....

Actually it's a lot less than that.

Total Rounds carried for various tanks that I have data for are in the order of:
Israeli Centurion: 72rds
Chieftain: 64rds 50/50 AP/HESH
Challenger 1: 52rds 50/50 AP/HESH
M-60A3: 63rds 50/50 AP/HE
M1A1: 40 rds 50/50 AP/HE
M1: 55rds 50/50 AP/HE
Leo1: 60rds 50/50 AP/HE
Leo2: 42rds 50/50 AP/HE
T-55: 43rds 23AP, 3 HEAT, 17HE
T-62: 40rds 14AP, 7 HEAT, 19HE
T-64/72/80: 40rds, 12AP, 6 HEAT, 22HE

As you can see I think most tanks will be out of AP pretty quickly.

Hope this helps, B

Bingo!

[KungPao]

Hi MaxDamage
I don’t think there is a huge technology gap between Chieftain and T80BV. Different generation, yes, but that doesn’t mean T80 will be a guaranteed winner. Chieftain is not an obsolete tank also. It’s more like a Panther shooting a post war Patton, Panther can knock out Patton.

I watched your video clips for testing at 1000m and 3000m. I believe the 3000m test exposed a real issue of this game, I will talk this later. For the 1000m test, it’s like a knife fight in a telephone booth. 120mm L11 is very capable to penetrate the T80BV at this range.

I see your frustration for spotting at 1000m. Unlike many other members on this forum, I don’t have an experience of a tank crewmember, but I see myself as an experienced gamer. Maybe you can try some sim game, like steel beast, T-72 Balkan in fire, or even ARMA. Put yourself behind the scope with a narrow FOV, you will feel the pain. And the TI makes the difference.

I have a question for game developer here too, does the larger size of soviet units influence the detection?

And for the 3000m test, you lost 7 T80. I noticed that all 7 KIA are not destroyed but fallout. I read Flashpoint campaign treat main gun damaged and immobilized as fallout. And I think here is an area this game can get improved in the future. IRL, many heavily damaged AFV will stay in the battle or formation. The one with damaged gun help on spotting, immobilized one can still shot the gun.

Maybe in the future OTS can build a engine to track detail description on each AFV, everyone in the unit will have a status report of the gun, sight, radio and track. The damaged unit can be split from the mother counter and form a damaged unit counter? Ah, I know I am a greed customer, I asked for too much.

My 50 cents

[KungPao]

Another question for OTS, Chieftains AP value 29, is that the penetration of L15 APDS @ 60 degree armor at 2000m, then divided by 10?

[CapnDarwin]

An AP of 29 is roughly 435mm (29 * 15) at effective range 1750-2000m (don't have the data in front of me).