Blow the Bridges! - A Time to Dance

[spelk]

I've just finished my "blow up all the bridges" effort on the A Time to Dance scenario.. heres a quick summary...

Here's the stage I got too just at the end of "turn 3"- where I've got the four bridges all blown, the fifth bridge far left needs another turn on it to complete the destruction.



It seemed to go very well in the beginning, I stationed what firepower I could high up with as much cover as possible, and just let them take pot shots at the Russkies over the other side of the river. However, given enough time, they get some engineers up to the front and they created a new bridge and then started rolling their armour across. That's when it got tricky.

My best shout was to pull back into a defensive bundle, centered around the trees and hills and hope to survive what they threw at me. The good thing was that with the bridges out, they had to channel what they had through a small area to get to me, so I just heavily soiled that area with fire.

They eventually forged another bridge in the North, and pushed their way into the town, then flanked Northwards and got to my back quarter.

They didn't manage to secure the 3000 VP's hex on the far left ever! Which I think was partly due to having to run such a bottlenecked gauntlet at their re-made bridge.

In the end though, they pushed north and started to overwhelm me, dropping airstrikes on large stacks of my units (ouchy!). However, I held out, had plans to push hasty recon vehicles back into the VP hexes along the river, but sadly the mission ended and the scores were tallied. I think its the best yet for this scenario, but I still only managed 52%, a Contested Battle result. Two more percent and I would have eeked it over into a Marginal Success.



Now I know they can make their own bridges, I'm going to have to work out how to stop that.

I took out 142 of the blighters though!


Here's how it was left. I'd managed to destroy the Northern invasion force, and was about to begin a desperate run back east to take those unguarded VP hexes. A little more time, I might have done it!



Very moreish planning and watching it play out, shouting at my hummers "blow the damn bridges NOW!", and my surprise when the Russkies forged the river and started rolling down the roads! Every loss is a blow, taken personally. And when they'd knobbled my only Arty unit, there was a cry of despair! Bloody good jolly japes this is, really enjoying the game!

[Mad Russian]

If you can start a scenario next to a bridge, which you can in this scenario for one of the bridges, you can give the units demolition orders during setup. When that happens the bridge will blow up immediately without having to wait the 30 minutes for your engineers to rig it for demolition.

Good fighting on your part. Game play in this game is so different it takes a little practice to get your men what you want them to do. Getting them there is only part of the issue. Having them do what you want is the other half.

It took me a long time to adjust to not giving everyone fire orders at every target I wanted hit.

When you fight really hard a contested battle is a victory!! [&o]

We'll talk later about your abuse of the English language....[:D] [:D] [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR

[CapnDarwin]

Spelk, Sounds like you are getting the hang of that scenario. It is tough for its apparent small size. As you noticed, large stacks of units is a prime target for the AI. I'll wager your stack was with an HQ. Remember HQs can be located by radio traffic and get arty or air strikes called down on them.

Glad you enjoy the game!

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

...
Remember HQs can be located by radio traffic and get arty or air strikes called down on them.
...

Important safety tip! [:-]

[apd1004]

I just started playing this scenario as the US. At the start it looks like all of the bridges are already blown. At scenario start, all I see are blown bridges. I see no intact bridges. The rules say streams can only be crossed by amphibious units or via a bridge (existing or engineered). Not knowing the composition of the Soviet force, I figure all I need to do is keep eyes on the stream to see where they are going to attempt to cross with amphibious vehicles (BMP, BTR, BRDM, etc) or where they are going to try to bridge the stream with any possible bridging assets. No need to keep a heavy forward presence on the stream at this point.

Next thing I know I've got T80's crossing the stream and now they are on my side of it. Needless to say, my entire defensive plan is useless at this point.

Here are the possibilities as I see them: The manual is wrong about the rules on who can cross streams, or is lacking the part about non-amphibious fording, or completely forgets to mention stream depth; the icons representing blown bridges are incorrect and the bridges really aren't blown; the T80's are snorkel capable (don't see that on the F6 viewer) (I'm pretty sure they're not amphibious); or they threw up a bridge that I couldn't see even though I had eyes on where they came across. The last possibility is that I'm totally missing something here. Actually, that should be the first possibility in the order of things...

[Mad Russian]

There are two versions of this scenario. Make sure you are playing the NATO version. If the bridges are start the game blown you are playing the Soviet version.

The Version you are looking for has the title of the scenario start with an N.

Good Hunting.

MR

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: apd1004

Here are the possibilities as I see them: The manual is wrong about the rules on who can cross streams, or is lacking the part about non-amphibious fording, or completely forgets to mention stream depth; the icons representing blown bridges are incorrect and the bridges really aren't blown; the T80's are snorkel capable (don't see that on the F6 viewer) (I'm pretty sure they're not amphibious); or they threw up a bridge that I couldn't see even though I had eyes on where they came across. The last possibility is that I'm totally missing something here. Actually, that should be the first possibility in the order of things...

I've played it with the Soviets, the T-80s (and the Mech Inf) can cross the river with the bridges down - of course the challenge is to do so without getting slaughtered. 'Hurry up and wait', is a good rule, got into a position before the final assault and spent 30 or so mins on artillery and airpower prep (CB and hitting the obvious tank groupings) and went for it.

[apd1004]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

There are two versions of this scenario. Make sure you are playing the NATO version. If the bridges are start the game blown you are playing the Soviet version.

The Version you are looking for has the title of the scenario start with an N.

Good Hunting.

MR

Well then, it looks like that was a big thing I was missing! [X(]

Thanks!

[apd1004]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've played it with the Soviets, the T-80s (and the Mech Inf) can cross the river with the bridges down...

Not doubting it and not trying to be a rules cop (I am an ASL'er by the way) but that doesn't really jive with what the rules say though. I get it for the BMP's because they are amphibious (although, I've been in a BMP and would rather swim than be inside one of them while going amphibious...). If you go by the rules then a T80 should never be allowed to cross that stream without a bridge. I'm assuming there's not an AI 'enhancement' that allows only AI T80's to do this? I'm totally cool with fording rules or snorkeling T80's if that's within the realm of possibilities. Will give it a go as the Soviets to see how that works out.

Thanks!

[Mad Russian]

The combat engineer capabilities are abstract.

That includes AVLB bridges, pontoon bridges, MAB, etc...that is on the list to flesh out.

Good Hunting.

MR

[SgtChaudart]

I've played it side NATO with the "Staff Limited Rule" quite a few times and I can say it's hard that I get better than a marginal sucess.
With the Staff Limited, each movement or action must be maturely thinking. And with the complete soviets jamming, we can't give order during a long time.
So! Very great challenge!
Congratulation to the team!

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: apd1004

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've played it with the Soviets, the T-80s (and the Mech Inf) can cross the river with the bridges down...

Not doubting it and not trying to be a rules cop (I am an ASL'er by the way) but that doesn't really jive with what the rules say though. I get it for the BMP's because they are amphibious (although, I've been in a BMP and would rather swim than be inside one of them while going amphibious...). If you go by the rules then a T80 should never be allowed to cross that stream without a bridge. I'm assuming there's not an AI 'enhancement' that allows only AI T80's to do this? I'm totally cool with fording rules or snorkeling T80's if that's within the realm of possibilities. Will give it a go as the Soviets to see how that works out.

Thanks!

If the unit doesn't have fording capabilities than it can't cross rivers or streams. T-80s don't have this capability. It all bridges are blown Then the river was bridged somewhere that allowed them to cross.

[apd1004]

Getting back to Spelk's original post - sorry to hijack it with my rules questions

Interesting to see that the AI did indeed use a somewhat different approach in your game than in mine. It appears that the AI in your game adapted to your situation which was different than mine. Pretty much the entire Soviet force attempted to get across the river northeast of Bad Neustadt and I got lucky and had a few platoons of M1's on the high ground in cover on the north side of the middle bridge and they just decimated the Soviet tanks across the river. This developed in about the 3rd orders phase so it happened real quick. I managed to get the bridges blown just in time so they kind of got bunched up on the south side of the river and the bulk of the Soviet tank losses were in a very small area. The scenario ended before I got a chance to see if they would attempt an alternate route like they did in your case.



2nd Squadron Blackhorse will get another Presidential Unit Citation for this battle. Also, interestingly my kill numbers were right in line with yours, the only real difference being the control of the VP locations. Looks like my Stinger team even nailed a MiG-23.



What I like:

I like the automatic resupply where the unit displaces and then resupplies out of harms way. Saves me the trouble of manually doing the same thing. I also like how assault moves automatically switch to Hold posture and other types of moves end in Screen posture - kind of makes movement dummy proof and you can pick the appropriate type of movement as sort of an "actions on contact SOP" that best fits the situation and won't cause your units to just die in place if they get ambushed, nor will it cause them to displace if they have the advantage. The key is anticipating the correct type of movement.

What I don't like: I can't imagine the 2/11 ACR going into their capstone battle with no artillery support. V Corps had 2 FA BDE's with a total of 8 FA BN's, and surely some of that would have been in support of 2/11 ACR for their fight in their AO of the Fulda Gap. That being said, it might have unbalanced the scenario to have added artillery for the US.

What I would like to see: I'd like to see a way to have direct support and general support artillery. For instance, 2/11 ACR would have had an organic battery of M109 howitzers under their command, which I would probably put on-map in a scenario. They might also have had another 1-3 batteries M109's direct support and another 1-3 batteries M110's or MLRS as general support. The rules for direct support would be just how the game treats off map artillery now. The general support would be available/unavailable randomly to reflect how they might be supporting another unit in an off-map battle.

Really diggin' this game right now!

Cheers

[CapnDarwin]

apd1004,

Under normal circumstances they would have more arty. The whole premise of the scenario is the NATO forces getting caught flatfooted with the sudden attack. They do get their mortars online as the fight goes but the bigger guns are either caught dealing with the invasion elsewhere or knocked out in the opening minutes. There is all of the kind of on and off map arty in other scenarios.

[Mad Russian]

Half the premise for this scenario is NATO got caught flat footed. The other half is that NATO is being told, "this is all a mistake" and they are trying to call these rogue officers to a halt. We are not to create a border incident.

Anyone that ever served in NATO knows how stupid that sounds and how absolutely true it would have been.

I think I put a lot of thought into how this story is told. Maybe the rest of you won't agree. Still, it's my story...[;)]

Good Hunting.

MR

[apd1004]

Great scenario guys, not criticizing at all. I suppose it's easy to lose sight of the big picture at the tactical~operational level. In the grand scheme of things, 2/11's sector wasn't even in the main line of thrust through the gap anyway, so I can see the artillery that survived the initial attacks spending all their time with 1/11 and 3/11.

Just played the Soviet side and got a 77% marginal victory, mainly through VP capture. Ran all the way to the end when time ran out. Started to take pretty heavy losses the last hour because the visibility got down to 500m with heavy rain which really hurts the Russians but the TIS's can still see. Weather never got good enough to use my airstrikes before the sorties went bingo.

Just noticed the Direct Support feature for artillery, didn't see it before. I like it.

Thanks

[spelk]

Well, after another try I got my Marginal Success on A Time to Dance







I think the key to success was getting the bridges blown, and then provide a supporting network of tank fire in the Southern edges of the river, with mechanised units holding the Northern edge.

Still room for improvement though..

As has been said - the first bridge can be toasted on the setup turn - I didn't notice this initially, in fact I didn't even consider blowing the bridges till attempt #4, so it was a bit of a #foreheadslap revelation to me.

It is a desperate situation and one which really does invoke a very tense last stand situation. That's why I like it so much, and why I've played it about 8 or 9 times now. Each time being a different approach and a little bit of hope.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: apd1004

Great scenario guys, not criticizing at all. I suppose it's easy to lose sight of the big picture at the tactical~operational level. In the grand scheme of things, 2/11's sector wasn't even in the main line of thrust through the gap anyway, so I can see the artillery that survived the initial attacks spending all their time with 1/11 and 3/11.

Just played the Soviet side and got a 77% marginal victory, mainly through VP capture. Ran all the way to the end when time ran out. Started to take pretty heavy losses the last hour because the visibility got down to 500m with heavy rain which really hurts the Russians but the TIS's can still see. Weather never got good enough to use my airstrikes before the sorties went bingo.

Just noticed the Direct Support feature for artillery, didn't see it before. I like it.

Thanks

Criticism makes things better. I understand that you are voicing what you see as a noticeable hole in the defense. Of all the scenarios I think "A Time To Dance" has gotten the most comments. It allows me to discuss the evolution of the war as I see/saw how it might have played out. Maybe because I was 'boots on the ground' in the theater I have a different perspective of how things might go. Maybe because I read incessantly about the Eastern Front and the Soviet Art of War I have a different perspective of how things might go. Or maybe I just see things from a different angle. [&:]

That's for multiple reasons. For the equipment packages I chose to use, or not use, for the way the US units arrive in a jumbled up fashion, etc...

ROFL..the first time Cap'n Darwin played it he asked me if it was finished yet. Because there wasn't even an HQ that started on the map. [:D]

I will tell you that you have just hit the tip of the ice berg. I think that the entire scenario set is made up of scenarios just like this one. They are all 'different'. By that I mean each of them is as uniquely different in game play as "A Time To Dance" is. They all have that 'grab you by the throat and don't let go' quality. To want to come back and try it 'just one more time'!!

Your comments are not taken as criticism in a negative light. It shows me that you guys pay attention and know how the situations take place. What you should expect to see and when. That also tells me that some of the other scenarios are going to rock this gaming group!! [:D]

"A Time To Dance" is just the beginning!!!!! [8D]

Good Hunting.

MR

[Gizuria]

I played this one through to the bitter end this afternoon as NATO and my performance was rated 'tolerable', which was perhaps a tad generous since I lost all the bridges and my forces were reduced to less than 30% strength. There was a BIG fight in Bad Neustadt which cost me a whole battalion of mech infantry and once that went down, they were up the back road to the village where my HQs and artillery were. Fortunately, I made them pay for every VP location with blood and that kept me ahead in VPs at the end.

Great fun indeed. Very tough fight. I'll have to try this one as the Russians.

A quick question though, the Cntr-Z screenshot hotkey doesn't work when I'm viewing the End of Mission report, etc. (It works fine during the mission) I'd like to keep a record of my wins/losses as I go along. Do I need to use FRAPS to get a screenshot at the end?

[cbelva]

I use the Print Screen key on my keyboard. It works every time. I paste it onto a paint program and crop it the way I want it and then save it. Not a big deal.