Plausible numbers for the M41 Walker Bulldog

[WABAC]

Easy enough to come up with the armor and speed numbers. I don't know what the formula is to create a plausible values for the armor value -- or even which cell they go in. But someone knows the answer to that and can share it.

What is harder to find is any credible information on the penetration value of the 76mm M32 gun. According to the Worldwide Equipment Guide it fires: APFSDS-T, AAI M464, M33A1 and A2 APDS-T, M319 and M339 AP-T, M496 HEAT-T, HE, Smoke (WP), M363 cannister. And yes, I have tried google -- from a number of angles.

I have read that they were able to shoot up T54's and T55's in Vietnam. So lacking any other information I suppose I could just +1 to whatever their appropriate armor value is. Or something like that anyway. . .

Aside from the Walker, and adding a few more planes, I am ready to start putting some units together. Fun stuff. My thanks to OTS.

[CapnDarwin]

Now then, I have been able to read many of the posts on TankNet, but has the collective knowledge of the group managed to crack the armour penetration details of the various rounds for the 76mm M32 gun on the Walker Bulldog? It seems to be one of the last great unknowns of the Cold War. I have so far:

round penetration of vertical RHA
M496 HEAT 22cm at 2000m
M646 FSAPFDS 25cm at 1000m, 23cm at 2000m, Denmark, Taiwan 1985
M500 FSAPDS 30cm at 1750m, Denmark, not in service as of 2006
M339 APCBC ?, 1950s, used by Turkey, Guetemala at least
M319 HVAP 25cm at up to 100m, 20cm at 1000m, 15cm at 2km, 1950s? used by Turkey
M331A1 HVAPDS 7cm 1t 1000m, 1958? incorrect value obviously
M332 HVAPDS ?
unstated HVAP 20cm at 1000m, 15cm at 2000m 1951, wargames rules source
unstated HVAP 24cm at 1000m, wargames rules estimate
unstated AP 14cm at 1000m, wargames rules estimate

I would go with the HEAT value of 220mm or 15 in game terms. Also set AP to have effect range of 1000m and a value of 200mm or 13 AP. Best guess using the info found above. Hope it helps.

[WABAC]

Thank you Capn. I wonder when you rest.

I saw those numbers. And if they work for you they work for me.

How do I work out the rest of the numbers for armor protection? Maneuver? Etc. from numbers like this site provides: http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m41bulldog.html

If there is some sort of standard format (formula) then I can apply it to any other armored vehicles I might need?

[CapnDarwin]

I will need to pull up the formula for protection factor. Try to get to that later today.

[WABAC]

Thank you Capn.

Take your time. I have to catch up on errands. And there is plenty of other stuff to do on the spreadsheet.

Thanks again.

[CapnDarwin]

Thanks, I'm working on code and docs right now so I will stay the course and see if I can catch a break Sunday for you.

[WABAC]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Thanks, I'm working on code and docs right now so I will stay the course and see if I can catch a break Sunday for you.

No way I will need this today. Keep plugging away on whatever you are up to. I can wait for the mod doc and get the answer with everyone else.

[Panta_slith]

Since you are leafing through docs, here is a table that you can include in your databas: It is an "Observation & Acquisition" table that is in the Modern Land Warfare rules from the UK's War Department, Unit 2 Design, 1980, a set of rules for sand table miniatures battles based on their own military rules.
The distance scale is 12 inches to a mile. Hope it helps. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Thanks, I'm working on code and docs right now so I will stay the course and see if I can catch a break Sunday for you.

[CapnDarwin]

Panta, is there a file? Thanks.

[Panta_slith]

...well, eerr, yes...[X(]

[CapnDarwin]

Thanks.

[WABAC]

I have found a publication at the Internet Archive called An Analytical Study of Data on Armor Penetration by Tank-Fired, Kinetic Energy Weapons Bell and Hulbert 1958, that gives some interesting data tables at the end of the publication, and after 20-30 pages of formulas that are incomprehensible to me, but may be of interest to others.

The study was sponsored by the Armed Services Technical Information Agency.

While it lists penetration numbers, it does not show range. Instead it shows the velocity -- at impact I presume. And it shows results from a number of different tests that includes the number of shots fired. The average best result for the M331 series HVAP-DS is seven inches at 3300 to 3600 feet per second. Standard muzzle velocity from any number of artillery Technical Manuals is 4125 FPS.

One of the tank-shooter game sites has some images from what is known as the Ad-Hoc Group on Armament for Future Tanks or Similar Combat Vehicles (AKA ARCOVE) formed in 1957 by GEN Maxwell Taylor, then Army Chief of Staff. . . . Anyway, their image shows the M331 at 10.3" at 1000 yards, and 8 or 9.1" at 2000 yards. This is the study that would launch the M551. So you may want to take it with a grain of salt. [;)]

In game terms I will be going with an AP value of 11 at an effective range of 914 meters.

One of their users has contributed some shots of a 1962 Swedish military manual that confirms the HEAT round is good for 250mm of penetration.

The Bell-Hulbert study is attached for those interested.

[CapnDarwin]

Thanks for posting the info.

[WABAC]

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

Thanks for posting the info.

De nada.

It's pretty far outside what you guys are working on, but the kind of gamers your projects attract might enjoy it anyway.

Who doesn't love primary sources? [:D]